Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

Eliza Scarlet is a woman unlike any other. For starters, she’s the only female detective in Victorian-era London.

CLIP 

Duke You were right, there is someone else here, we have to go.

Eliza Your arm. Let me see.

Duke We don’t have time.

Eliza If you bleed to death I’ll be here on my own, come on.

Being a woman could be a barrier for Eliza as she follows in the footsteps of her recently deceased detective father. But for Eliza Scarlet, nothing is too difficult to sort through — besides paying off a mortgage, perhaps.

CLIP

Ivy I got back to the house this morning just after eight. I called out for her but there was no reply. So I went into her room and the bed hadn’t been slept in.

Duke Well, I’m sure she had risen early and made the bed herself.

Ivy I’ve known that girl since she was five years old and not once has she ever made her bed or tidied her room. She can barely even cook.

Jace Eliza is strong, and smart and sharp-witted — and able to slip between the legal cracks to solve crimes that nobody else at Scotland Yard can handle.

CLIP

Eliza Am I right in thinking you play cards with your friends for money, because you should know you have the most glaringly obvious tell. You sniff whenever you’re about to lie.

Jace Kate Phillips is of course already familiar to MASTERPIECE fans from her role as Jane Seymour in Wolf Hall — not to mention her appearance in the Downton Abbey movie— and she joins us here to discuss crime, anachronistic feminism, and why Dublin is a perfect stand-in for Victorian-era London.

Jace This week, we are joined by Miss Scarlet and the Duke star, Kate Phillips. Welcome.

Kate Hello.

Jace What was it about Rachel New’s script for Miss Scarlet and the Duke that made you want to sign on?

Kate A whole bunch of stuff, really, I mean, as you know, the world itself is so vividly painted by Rachel, so vast ensemble of characters and. You know, it being a period piece set in the late 1800s, yet it’s very different to any period piece I’ve seen or I’ve even been a part of, really has a sort of punchiness and the kind of fast-pacedness to it which jumps out within the first few moments really. I was hooked by the end of reading the first the opening title sequence. And also this character of Eliza she’s just awesome. She’s a fully rounded character. You know, she’s she’s feisty and ballsy and front footed, but at the same time still quite young and is learning and making all these mistakes at the same time. So she’s very fun to play. So, yeah, I just I, I was really excited to get started and was was thrilled to be offered the part.

Jace I mean, as you say from that opening scene with Eliza examining the prostitute’s body in that glass eye, it’s very clear that we’re in a period drama like none other.

CLIP

Eliza Did you call the police?

Georgie No, only like you said.

Eliza Keep watch.

Delilah Thief!

Eliza I’m no thief! I’m a private detective!

Delilah Yeah and I’m a high court judge!

Eliza Can we not discuss this in a more civilized manner?

Delilah Arghhh!

Eliza I would gladly return your eye. I wanted dead, not drunk. Next time check for a pulse first.

Jace It’s the way it’s written, the way that it’s shot by Declan O’Dwyer. It feels really modern and quick paced. How do you see Miss Scarlet smashing viewer preconceptions about period mysteries and what they should be or might be?

Kate It looks awesome, perhaps in in in a way that other period dramas aren’t always shot. There’s a great soundtrack underscoring the whole thing. It feels like it has a real pace to it, like a real great beat. But I think Rachel was just really, really keen to. To get audiences excited in this in this in the character of Eliza and her relationship with the Duke, and it feels really intimate in that sense, it feels very honest and it has a great sense of humor as well, which I think, you know, life does even when its darkest, darkest moment moments. It can be quite funny. And that’s definitely something that’s perhaps unusual in in it being a period drama.

Jace I mean, I love the way in that scene that she gives as good as she gets against the would-be corpse in that first episode and then simply sort of dusts herself off and leaves. There’s no fainting. There’s no dramatics. She’s just a woman on a mission. Do you see her as an opportunist in that respect, trying to find ways of gaining experience when so many doors are just closed to her as a woman?

Kate Despite everyone telling her she can’t achieve all those things, she goes ahead and does it anyway. And I guess that’s what’s really fun about her, is that she’s constantly being told no and she’s up against these nut backs. But she just sort of strives on and she has those moments where she’s perhaps doubting herself and then, as you say, you see that those moments in the flashback, those flashback moments between her and her father, which can be really lovely, where you see this very vulnerable side of her. And it gives her strength to try again.

Jace I mean, she she’s forced to become a private detective after the unexpected death of her father, taking on what acclaimed mystery novelist P.D. James once declared rather tongue in cheek as an unsuitable job for a woman. How much of her decision to become a private detective is about survival and how much is about Eliza’s own desire for excitement?

Kate And. I think probably a bit of both, really. You know, she, I think, enjoys the using the excuse of needing to go out and work in order to keep her household going, but really I think she’s driven by this yearning to go out and and be a private detective. She’s watched her father do it all those years and she knows she’s got the skills. And I think she is desperate to follow in her dad’s footsteps. I think she as I said, I think she enjoys the fact that she has become a necessity. Of course, I don’t think for one second she is thrilled her father has passed.

Jace On that note, Henry Scarlett, we learn in this week’s episode has been murdered. The loss of both of his parents seems to put her on par with, say, Batman. I mean, she has this sort of spirit of justice within her that does recall Batman. What would you say is the role of justice in her life as opposed to, say, vengeance?

Kate Yeah, I she has a very strong sense of right and wrong, which I think she really has to what she had really worked through in episode three when she’s with the suffragists, a real sense of believing in justice and the rule of law. But also she’s conflicted because she sees these women doing things that she completely believes in, too. So in terms of trying to strive for justice in episode five, that’s her goal, ultimately, she wants to find out the truth, which is, of course, what any great detective is really looking to uncover. They’re not. They want to know the truth and. I think in her heart of hearts, she’s what she’s all about, that she really wants to. Settings, right?

Jace There’s so much love between Eliza and her father, so ably played here by Kevin Doyle, a.k.a. Mr. Molesley from Downton Abbey. A love that that really does exist beyond the grave. Eliza imagines her father is a sort of advisor guiding her with his wisdom. How did you read those scenes between Eliza and her? And I’m using this in air quotes here, her “ghostly mentor”?

Kate I think that’s one of my favorite bits in the series I love. I loved working with Kevin and I felt like they’re really, those scenes are fantastic tools for you to kind of use you to see in a completely different light. It’s one of the few moments where she really drops her guard and where she has to really looking in on herself. I mean, it’s when it’s in those reflective moments that he appears for her, I suppose, when she’s lost and needing guidance. So the role that he plays for her is just a very, very gorgeous one and some really, really precious scenes between them,.

CLIP

Henry I hid that casebook for a reason. I knew if something happened to me you’d come looking for answers.

Eliza What would you have me do, let them get away with it?

Henry Let William and his men do their jobs Lizzie.

Eliza What if they…? What if they miss something, some vital clue however small?

Henry You’ve done enough but now you’re being reckless, you’re risking your life. You’ve shown how capable you are, you don’t need to die to prove the point.

Eliza I’m not proving anything to anyone.

Henry Lizzie…

Eliza Stop calling me that, I’m a grown woman!

Jace You are no stranger to Downton yourself. You played Princess Mary in the Downton film, and you are, as I know, a Downton devotee. So how crazy was it to be acting opposite Kevin Doyle then in these scenes?

Kate Very special. I have a huge amount of respect for him. And, you know, as anyone who’s a Downton fan or of any show, in fact, when you see those sort of those iconic figures appear to you in a different context, it’s a very weird.

Jace Eliza often runs afoul of the Duke, William Wellington, who has his own ideas about what Eliza  ought to be doing and not doing with her life. How do you categorize their dynamic?

Kate Oh, well, I mean, they’re like, you know, they have this brotherly-sisterly bickering relationship and in some respects they’ve been brought up in a way as to be such, you know, they’ve known each other for a really young age. But, you know, there’s this very fun, ‘Will they, won’t they?’ thing going on. And she pushes him in a way that makes him feel incredibly uncomfortable. And but there’s a huge amount of respect there, too. So it’s really fun watching them both drop their guard over the course of the series and really come to realize how much they need each other.

Jace Their relationship, despite the sexual tension between them, is chaste, except for a stolen kiss between the two of them as teenagers after the death of Eliza’s dog. How important to their story is that incident and how does it inform their rapport, especially after Eliza learns that it’s Henry who put the dog out of its misery?

Kate I think it’s a lovely hook. I think they have something that he uses to, he loves to return to sort of trigger fury in her I think he enjoys that. It’s nice that they’ve got that in their history, so we’ll see if it ever happens again.

Jace What is it like having Stuart Martin as your partner in crime, as it were?

Jace Oh, well, I mean, Stuart’s it’s like the nicest man in the world, really, and so I’m so lucky to have him as a as a friend and partner on set. I mean, he’s great, very good at his job. We as soon as we met him for the Duke, it was just so clear that he was the perfect guy for the job and he sort of embodies him fully and whilst also being, you know, not as grumpy and offensive as the Duke in any way. But he’s just he’s perfect. And I love working with him. He’s great.

Jace Before this next question, let’s take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors…

Jace I love the scene in Episode three, which shows Eliza teaching Cathy Belton’s Ivy how to write the vowels of the alphabet. It’s such a small but powerful moment that connects these two women from two very different classes. What did that scene mean to you as a woman today?

Kate Well, again, I think working with Cathy in that scene, the relationship that she has with Ivy is one of my favorite relationships that Eliza has. I think it’s really important that you see Eliza have this relationship with another strong and brilliant female. It’s something that she has lacked in her life. And it’s really lovely to see that relationship play out. And also that particular scene for me was always felt so important as well, because it really, you know, marked that bit of learning that Eliza goes through during that series, you know, she realizes that it’s her responsibility, really, to give back and give you Ivy an opportunity to, you know, she’s never had the education that Eliza was gifted, so Ivy should have that in her life, too, and it was a very lovely scene to shoot. And Cathy’s wonderful she’s one of the great Irish actresses, so we were so lucky to have her.

Jace Margaret Fairfax, the murderous suffragette, says of Eliza, quote, “I do not need pity from a woman like you. At least I have tried to make a difference. But you everything you are, everything you do is for yourself, no one else.” Why does that strike such a chord within Eliza?

Kate Because I think on some level, perhaps it’s true, but this is what’s so exciting about Eliza is a character that she, while she’s a woman fighting for her own rights, she doesn’t understand what it is to fight for women’s rights and not something that she comes to understand when she meets these group of women doing things that she, Eliza, would see as law breaking and long. And it’s I think it’s the first time she’s shattered her ideas of what’s right and wrong in a black and white. She sees the world in a very in in that sense and Margaret says that line to her and she doesn’t have any defense and that’s what’s great. You know, she’s taking it on she’s she’s taking on it on and she’s learning. And I and you know that that will come out later in the series and in a sort of different way, you know, she’ll have she’ll know to to treat people in a different way because of that relationship she had with Margaret, that encounter she had with Margaret.

Jace Do you ultimately see Eliza Scarlet as being a feminist character?

Kate Yes, I see her as a feminist in her in her time, yeah, definitely.

Jace And nearly all of the characters in Miss Scarlet are outliers of a sort. There’s the lady detective, the Glaswegian copper, rubbing elbows with the elite public schools that the Jamaican criminal, the closeted gay suitor, the disgraced police detective inspector turned P.I. How much of that do you feel is by design?

Jace Oh, it’s definitely something that Rachel, our showrunner, talks about, that she wanted every character for each character, there’s a glass ceiling. There’s only so far they can they can go. And that’s what brings them together. And they they’ve all got a similar. Narrative in that sense, they bond over this frustration that they don’t quite fit in this world.

Jace I mean, despite what the Duke might say, Eliza’s involvement in these cases has helped him immeasurably, which is why the newspaper story about his latest case is such a disappointment. Is it male ego that prevents him from mentioning Eliza initially?

Kate I mean, yes, and I think it’s made very easy for him because also. You know, we’ve got to remember that the world that they both live in. No one expects her to succeed. And no one’s really asking about her, so it’s very easy for him to deflect all the attention onto himself. So in that way we kind of forgive him. But again, he goes on to learn that there is space in this world for a brilliant woman. So, yeah, it’s lovely.

Jace He does, in the end make good I mean, he does mention her involvement.  What is Eliza’s reaction to William finally taking a stand and including her in the newspaper article in Episode four?

Kate Well, she’s incredibly moved. I felt like when we played that scene perhaps more than I thought she would be. It felt like a very moving moment. And, you know, looking at it from the lens of a modern woman, you’d be like, well, ‘Why is she so thrilled that he’s finally mentioned her role in something that he should have? He should have brought that up earlier on.’ But I think what’s moving in that moment is his ability to shift his position and his, this very Victorian man be able to reach out a hand of generosity to her and that I think this is such an important step in their relationship.

Jace Episode five begins with a bang. Eliza has disappeared, and William’s investigation leads into the abandoned Woolwich prison where Eliza has gotten herself locked in one of the old cells. Only they’re not alone. How fantastic was it to shoot these very creepy sequences on location in in Wicklow Gail?

Kate They were definitely our favorite scenes to shoot. We shot episode five right at the end of the shoot, in fact. So we were kind of locked in the prison for about two weeks and it was just a completely different change of scene. I mean, I think the episode itself stands out as a very different kind of energy. And it just sort of upped the pace dramatically from what we’ve been doing up until then. It’s yeah, to date still my favorite episode to shoot.

Jace How surprised were you that Dr Edwards, the physician who attended to Eliza’s father, Henry, in episode one, would be revealed to be Harwood, a major player in the conspiracy surrounding his death? I was I was stunned.

Kate I never saw that coming. No idea. That was a real surprise.

Jace  The scene where Eliza wraps William’s arm is overloaded with clear sexual tension.

CLIP

Eliza There’s a lot of blood. Your hand, it’s very swollen. Can you move your fingers?

Duke I think there’s a bone broken. How did you open the door?

Eliza Persistence, you should try it some time. We need to stem the bleeding. Take off your jacket.

Duke No. No, this cost me a week’s wages.

Eliza Fine.

Duke Eliza.

Eliza Then I will cut it off.

Duke Eliza.

Jace What was it like filming the scene and walking this very fine line between text and subtext?

Kate Again, I really enjoyed playing that scene. You know, that’s what’s great about that scene, is that what’s happening is that their aim is to escape and get out. So that’s sort of in the back of their mind the whole time. But, of course, suddenly they’re required to become very physical and very intimate in a way that they hadn’t before. And finally, they sort of dropped their guard because they need each other to survive, really. And. Yes, so that’s sexual tension that’s loaded in that scene is was it was it was great fun. It was great fun.

Jace I mean, these are some of the most tense and nerve wracking scenes in the series so far as allies and William try to escape Woolwich with their lives intact. They come up against Harwood Gasmask man and the terrifying Garm. I mean, how much fun was it to lose yourself in this high stakes scenario?

Kate Great. I mean, we were running down corridors and sprinting down staircases and hiding in prison cells. I think I had a gun at one point. I mean, it was completely absurd in some respects, but certainly for Eliza, that’s not something that she had the opportunity to do up until then. I think perhaps more had been written in for me to do action-wise until they saw that my outfit. So I would I would have done more. But they’re very heavy skirts to run in. But what was great about that whole episode is that Eliza is the one sort of at the locked door trying to open the door with the keys, you know what I mean? It is not left to William to do all that kind of stuff. Perhaps he should have done it because maybe he’d have the strength to open that the prison door quicker than Eliza, I’m sure. But still, it was great that it was never up to William to jump in with his strength. Eliza was there solving everything, too. And so that was just it’s a great episode in that respect.

Jace The shootout at the prison might be my favorite scene in this episode because it shows Eliza as being clearheaded, clever and unstoppable at every turn, even when facing down Gasmask Man, how fantastic was it to get to draw against this masked villain?

Kate So great. You know, I come running round the corner pulling this gun. It was it. Yeah, it felt like a wind in my hair. I felt like that was then. It felt very exciting. Was great. I love.

Jace Batman. You’re Batman.

Kate I am Batman. Yeah, I’m the Stuart’s my Robin.

Jace I mean, it’s such a powerful image with Eliza squaring off against the masked man with William in danger, it’s a reversal of the sort of gendered tropes we’ve come to expect from period or even contemporary mystery thrillers. Is this Eliza Scarlet at her finest, do you think?

Kate Yeah, I mean, I for some reason, I don’t like to glorify these guns, but she’s definitely I love seeing her when she’s like in action. That’s just great. And she’s she’s. And I even feel like in that moment, you know, she’s still she scared as well. You know, she’s not bad. All, you know, she’s got all of this power and gung ho energy, but at the same time, she’s she’s just terrified as anyone else.

Jace William finally comes clean to his boss, Superintendent Stirling, about Eliza.

CLIP

Superintendent Stirling That damn woman, running around London making a fool of herself. Does she really need our protection?

Duke She does.

Superintendent Stirling Very well, that’ll be all.

Duke There is one more thing sir… Eliza Scarlet was the reason that we made this discovery in the first place. She has in fact helped me on several occasions in the solving of other crimes.

Jace What makes it possible, do you think, for him to finally acknowledge her in that way to his superior?

Kate I feel like for William, I think he suddenly understands who Stirling is and what their relationship is, and actually it’s not about mutual respect, but for William, he’s not going to get the respect that he desires from Stirling by playing Stirling’s game and that perhaps the one person in his life that does truly respect him is Eliza. So perhaps he shifts in that regard and realizes that he needs to give back to Eliza.

Jace I mean, the Eliza that ends episode five is very different to the Eliza that we met at the beginning of episode one. Her eyes have been opened in more ways than one. How do you see her as having changed over the course of this first series?

Kate I feel like she’s older. You know, I mean, that the Eliza are at the beginning of episode one, she didn’t even know at that point that her father had died. It’s you know, she’s gone out on her own, gone out on her own, and she’s succeeded and she’s got a number of battles yet to fight, but I think she knows that she’s got it in her at this stage. So she’s a more worldly young woman than the one that we meet at the beginning.

Jace What many viewers may not realize is that it’s Dublin filling in for 19^th-century London in Miss Scarlet. Which location in Dublin surprised you the most?

Kate Well, a number of locations, Dublin’s very clever to look so like London, and we filmed a lot in a house called Cabinteely House and I loved working there. It was a great place to be shooting when you had family or friends come and visit because you could just walk down one long corridor and you’d walk in one door and it would be Rupert Parker’s living room and then the next the door would be Eliza Scarlet’s living room and then you walk down the next one and it would be the kitchen. So I always find that quite sort of mad that in one small place you can have a lot of these different worlds that take you into completely different places. And I love that house as well. The attention to detail, the set designer did done had didn’t did a fantastic, wonderful job. I remember walking into Eliza’s living room for the first time and the kind of scheme just felt so right. Vivid, punchy, blue wallpaper. And it just made sense of everything for the first time. And yeah, it was lovely.

Jace Besides Miss Scarlet, your CV is full of things like Wolf Hall, War and Peace, The Crown, Peaky Blinders, among many other period dramas. Do you ever find yourself just itching to do a contemporary drama?

Kate Because of course I do. But what’s fab about the jobs I have done, I while they’re all under the umbrella of being a period drama, they’re all very different, of course. I mean, and I worked on The English Game, which was set at exactly the same time as Miss Scarlet and the Duke, but of course they they’re both Victorian dramas, but they have a completely different energy and Peaky, Peaky Blinders set in the 20s, so it’s very different to Downton Abbey, for example, set at various in the time. So and I feel like I’ve been in lots of worlds. I do say this often, but I do wonder what it would feel like to be on set in a pair of jeans that will feel very weird.

Jace We touched on the Downton Abbey movie earlier, but I want to circle back to that. I mean, as a huge Downton fan, what was it like getting an opportunity to become part of its narrative?

Kate Yeah, totally surreal. I’ve talked about first day on set, you know, walking across the lawns and towards this iconic building, which, you know, you see in the opening title sequence of the show. And it feels anyone who’s visited Highclere House understands that feeling, it does feel like you’re, yeah. Like a real ‘pinch me’ moment. ‘I’m walking on the set of Downton Abbey. So it was very it was very surreal.

Jace Kate Phillips, thank you so very much.

Kate Thank you. Thank you very much. Lovely to speak to you.

Jace We turn next to a different part of the world in an even earlier era — Jamaica at the very end of slavery, as Miss July’s personal and wrenching story is told amid the real-life backdrop of the Christmas Rebellion.

CLIP

Caroline Robert, you must take water otherwise you will die. Come on, please!

July Me mus’ try! Him will take water from me…

Caroline No! Out! Get Out! He cannot see any negroes now! The doctor has made it quite plain. It is negroes that have caused him this illness!

July But me make him well again!

Jace The Long Song star Tamara Lawrance joins us next to look at the conclusion of her powerful miniseries.

MASTERPIECE Studio is hosted by me, Jace Lacob, and produced by Nick Andersen. Elisheba Ittoop is our editor. The executive producer of MASTERPIECE is Susanne Simpson.