This script has been lightly edited for clarity

Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

After 11 years of murder, mystery, and mystifying crossword puzzles, we finally come to the final season of Endeavour. This episode is from a live conversation I had with Morse himself — Shaun Evans — during PBS’s virtual Endeavour event on June 11th 2023. 

Jace Lacob: I am Jace Lacob, the host of MASTERPIECE Studio, and we are live with Endeavour star, director and producer, Shaun Evans, Endeavour Morse himself. Welcome, Shaun.

Shaun Evans: Hey everyone. How’s it going? Thanks for having me.

Jace Lacob: We are live. I feel like I should ask you to hold up a copy of today’s newspaper, maybe the Oxford Mail or something just to show that we are live here. Because Endeavour was conceived as a Morse prequel series, there was always going to be an expiration date at some point, unless you played the role for another 20 years or so. Why did it feel like the right time to end the series?

Shaun Evans: Why did it feel like the right time to end the series? Well, I think we didn’t really have many incentives to go beyond the 33 that they made with Morse. So we always knew that the end was on the horizon. I think all of us, the team, myself, and Russell, Roger and Damien, and the guys at ITV as well, felt that the conclusion that we’d reached wasn’t the best that it could be. So, we decided to do three more than the original.

But it just felt like the right time. Sometimes you just know, right? And also you want to leave the party at the right time. You don’t want to be the last person there, right? You want to leave when it’s good and not when you’ve overstayed your welcome.

Jace Lacob: The Curse of the Ninth Symphony is invoked here. I believe it was Schoenberg who said, it seems the ninth is a limit. Is this a playful reminder that we’re approaching the end of Endeavour, that we’re in the ninth Symphony and are standing close to the hereafter?

Shaun Evans: Yes, it is indeed. Well caught. That’s what’s beautiful about Russell Lewis’s writing, I think. It’s also detailed and there’re little Easter eggs there to be found if you look carefully enough. And embedded within this, there’s many little farewells and farewell motifs. So yes indeed, it is.

Jace Lacob: As we just saw, Morse returns to Oxford in this episode, seemingly full of optimism after being treated for his alcoholism after series eight. Does his optimism last here, and can it ever last in the darkness of Morse’s world?

Shaun Evans: Oh, I think it doesn’t last intact. But I think there’s a small degree of optimism and hope, I think, which takes us right through to the end of the final episode. And then I hope as well that he has a degree of optimism about life beyond the stories that we tell. But, this is, I would say, the pinnacle of his optimism at the beginning of “Prelude”.

Jace Lacob: After receiving his cure in Lyme Regis, he’s abstaining from alcohol. He even turns down drinks with Dorothea Frazil, which she notes rather curiously. Does the cure then hold? Are the pink elephants of withdrawal banished at least?

Shaun Evans: Oh no, alas the cure does not hold. As soon as things begin to get emotionally tough, he finds a solace in a pint of real ale. So, no. Alas, no. But that’s the character that we know and love, right?

Jace Lacob: Morse. You mentioned the 33 films that John Thaw had done, and the 36 that you’ve done. And by the time the curtain falls, that’s three more episodes ultimately than John Thaw did. What do you take away from the experience of having played Endeavour Morse for more than a decade at this point?

Shaun Evans: What do I take away from it? Oh my goodness. So much, I mean, so much. Well, a decade’s worth of experience and laughter and friendship, and the people, the people, you know? The friendships that I’ve made with the people, and the work as well.

Work’s funny isn’t it? That’s what’s beautiful about long form TV I think, you get the chance to really explore something, and then it becomes like a message in a bottle. You just launch it and it has its own life beyond what you’d hoped and imagined and you get on with your life. And so, there’s so much that I take away from that period of time.

And all with gratitude as well. I have to say, it’s been one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life really.

Jace Lacob: Okay well, I’m going to ask you then to smash open that message in a bottle, crack the bottle, take out that note and look at it. In that sense, how did playing Morse help shape you as an actor, as a director, as a producer, and as a man?

Shaun Evans: Oh, wow. Good question. God, that’s a good question. That’s a big question. How did that help shape me? Well, in many, many, many ways, I think leading a company, I suppose, of actors for that amount of time, there’s definitely been a huge learning curve. And to also be learning from actors like Roger, Anton, Abigail, Caroline, and all of the extraordinary guest actors that we’ve had in as well. So that’s been one element of, I suppose from the acting point of view.

And then from directing, I think to be exposed in every scene to terrific directors, some of the best directors, I think, who are working in TV at the moment. And to see firsthand how they’re conducting their day-to-day business on set, how they’re getting the best out of people and how they’re doing their work, is sort of like a film school, you know? So to be there up close and personal with my little notebook, taking notes and making notes, it’s kind of been an extraordinary apprenticeship from a directing point of view.

And then as a man, I guess, It’s just helped me to grow in confidence. And also, I just feel incredibly grateful. Work is really important to me and that I’ve been blessed with the opportunity to be doing it at such an intense degree for such a consistent amount of time. You know, practice, practice, practice always makes you better, right? And so, it’s shaped me in so many ways, so many ways. It’s been an extraordinary experience. I feel very blessed actually.

Jace Lacob: You mentioned some of the best directors working in television, and that would include Mr. Shaun Evans himself as well.

Shaun Evans: Haha, no I wasn’t leading you there.

Jace Lacob: No, no, no. I am. I can say it and you can accept it. You directed a few episodes of Casualty before you helmed “Apollo” in series six of Endeavour, and then you went on to direct the opening episodes for series seven, series eight and series nine. How did Endeavour inspire you to direct? And to borrow your phrasing, how did the production provide the perfect ‘film school’ for a new director?

Shaun Evans: Okay, good question. How did it inspire me to direct? I think that had always been something that I’d been interested in. As a storyteller, I don’t want to be grand about it, but I think as an actor, I see myself more as a storyteller, and I was always interested in every part of it, every facet of it, really.

And also, I never wanted to limit myself to only being able to tell the stories that depend upon me and my very particular, how I sort of present to the world. I always wanted to get beneath it and beyond that, and to be able to explore stories that I would never be cast in to act. And also, I think stories are incredibly important, the stories that we tell ourselves about ourselves, the stories that we tell one another, stories are incredibly important, aren’t they?

And so, what was beautiful about the Endeavour experience was that it just provided a framework in order for me to be able to direct consistently, and to be able to do that to make a sort of 90 minute film once a year. Technically, it was like a film school in that regard. And like I said earlier about being able to watch the directors that are working and steal the bits that are useful, whilst applying them into my own particular way of working. Does that answer your question?

Jace Lacob: It does, it does. I mean, last time I saw you, you had a camera with you and you were sort of taking photos of everything. And then I’ve loved to see how you’ve developed as a director, particularly with the episode everyone just saw, “Prelude”. We’re going to talk about it in a minute, but I thought it was a beautiful episode.

Shaun Evans: Oh, thank you Jace.

Jace Lacob: We asked fans for questions as well. Kat M. from Nevada asked, “What will you miss most about playing Morse? And what aspect of Morse did you most or least connect with?”

Shaun Evans: What will I miss most about playing Morse? You know what, the people, the people. But then with the caveat that we’re all still incredibly close. Roger’s in a play at the moment, and Abigail and I speak frequently. James Bradshaw who plays Max DeBryn was in play recently, which we all went as a team to go and see. So I will miss the people, but the people are still very much in my life. I think that’s been one of the beauties of the experience as well, is to have been able to create a family of sorts.

But I suppose I’ll miss the detail and the intellectual rigor of Russell Lewis’s writing. And also Damien Timmer as well, who’s an executive producer at Mammoth. I’ll miss their intellectual rigor when we’re talking about story and their experience as makers of bringing into top-notch tv. So that’s that.

In terms of, the second part of the question was how am I most like Morse? Is that what it was?

Jace Lacob: Or what aspects of Morse did you most or least connect with?

Shaun Evans: I suppose least is easier. The things that are similar, I try not to think too closely about them. But where we’re different, I think, is where the characterization, I suppose, for want of a better word, lies. And I suppose I’m very optimistic, so I don’t really relate to his nihilism, or cynicism. And also I’m a very outgoing person. I kind of chat to everyone. So I wouldn’t be someone who’s in the corner quietly watching, do you know? I’d boldly introduce myself to everyone. So we’re not alike in that regard.

Jace Lacob: It is 1972, seven years have passed in the world of the show. Was there any sort of trepidation about how these final three films would function to tie up this story and line up with Morse? Or was it a matter of just trusting in Russell Lewis to dot those i’s, and cross those t’s as it were?

Shaun Evans: Not trepidation per se. I think we all wanted, everyone on the team wanted, to make it as satisfying and ending as possible, and also to give the audience a reward for staying with us for so long and to finish on a real high that’s sort of emotionally impactful, I suppose, rather than high.

It’s not like it’s taken us by surprise, the ending. We all knew that it was coming and have been having conversations since the beginning, really about how it would end and what the end would look like. And that’s been an ongoing conversation for basically all the time that we’ve been making the show. So it was less of a surprise and more of a trusting in Russell.

But also, I have to say that when I read the first draft of the final episode, I did think, wow, he’s done a great job there. I found it quite emotional reading the final episode.

Jace Lacob: So I have to ask, I’m going to put you on the spot, given that there were those conversations pretty early on about how the show would end, without spoiling anything, is the ending ultimately different than what you had originally discussed?

Shaun Evans: No, I don’t think it is. I don’t think it is. I think there’s certain nuances which are slightly different because of course, we’re a team making it, it’s not one person’s voice, and so it’s by committee, I guess.

But no, it’s still very much in the ballpark of what we’d discussed, satisfyingly so I think. Satisfyingly, so. It’s an interesting project. It’s been interesting because of course it’s very dear to me, but likewise for Roger, for Abigail, for Russell, for Damien, for ITV, for all the people who have made it.

It’s something that’s, I think, very special and dear to us because we’ve been making it for such a long period of time, and always encouraged one another to make it the best that it can be, you know? So we all wanted our own particular stamp on how it ended. But I do think we have harmoniously achieved that.

MIDROLL

Jace Lacob: Knowing then that the end was coming, that these would be the final three Endeavour films, did going into production on series nine feel different, that each scene in a way would be leading you closer and closer to that final shot?

Shaun Evans: Yea, for sure, for sure. But you know, it felt like a celebration really, to be honest, that beautiful thing of we saying when it would end rather than it no longer being popular or it being canceled or whatever. We were sort of the masters of our own destiny there in terms of the story. And so it felt like a celebration that we’d gone that far. And also acknowledged that this is the last time we might be doing this particular scene with this particular person. That in itself is a celebratory thing.

But also I think as well, because we created it, I think we all felt emboldened to really push it and to make it the best that it can be, for ourselves as well as for anyone else, so that we’ve all got something that we’re incredibly proud of.

So yes, it did feel precious, but not in a sad way, in a really good and emboldening way I suppose.

Jace Lacob: On a personal level, yeah, I would imagine so. Jodi K. from Florida asks, “How did you approach playing the role of a younger version of an established character? Did you have a plan for how your character would evolve towards his older self?”

Shaun Evans: I didn’t have a plan. When it first began, I hadn’t seen any of John Thaw’s TV version of it, so I’d just read the books. I’d read one or two of the books, and then when the job came my way, I read all of them. And then I was intrigued, and I had a lot of questions about how we could take someone in his mid twenties to the person that we know in his early fifties or whatever.

I was intrigued and I had many questions about it, but no answers. I think slowly, slowly it began to emerge, for me at least. But I didn’t come in with a great master plan of how we would do it or how I would do it. I just thought, try and make each scene as truthful and as interesting for me and for the character as possible, you know?

Jace Lacob: We come now to talk about “Prelude”, which you directed beautifully. It’s full of murder and music and menace. You’re working with a full orchestra here. Each of these Endeavour films offers its own unique challenges, but what challenges did “Prelude” offer in terms of directing?

Shaun Evans: What challenge did “Prelude” offer in terms of directing? Good question. Well, the orchestra actually, now that you’ve mentioned it. Because music is such an integral part of the show and part of this character’s life and inner life, we wanted to get that right and make it the absolute best that it can be.

And so Matt composed some music for it and then we got an orchestra. And the actors who were part of the orchestra, we wanted to see people who also had a degree of proficiency with the violin or with the instruments that they were playing. And so I thought, oh, that’s going to be a challenge. I wonder if we can get actors who are really brilliant and also, you know, grade eight violin.

And fortunately, we did. Susie Pariss, who was the casting director of Endeavour since the beginning, is kind of an unsung hero on this, I believe. She’s done magnificent work pulling together extraordinary, some of the best actors working in the UK at the moment, and consistently she’s done that in every single episode, and she did it again with this.

And so we fortunately managed to populate the orchestra with extraordinary actors, who were also extraordinary musicians. So what was a challenge also became a really interesting process, you know?

Jace Lacob: A challenge to an opportunity, basically.

Shaun Evans: Yeah, exactly. That’s what I was looking for, Jace. That’s much better.

Jace Lacob: The first shot of Morse this season is an interesting one. We see a crossword puzzle, then we see Morse doing it, sitting alone in Christchurch Meadow against the backdrop of Oxford, and he seems very separate, isolated. What were you looking to say about Morse as a character with this shot at the start of series nine?

Shaun Evans: Well, two things actually. Exactly that, that he is isolated and separate, but also he is completely in his world. There’s no to-ing and fro-ing anymore. There’s no, maybe I’ll retire, maybe I’ll go and do this. There’s no, on a bus on his way somewhere. I wanted him to be completely in his universe. And that seemed the most fitting place to do it.

Jace Lacob: That sense of isolation, I think, is echoed elsewhere in the episode. There’s that shot of Morse striding through the arcade before he questions the orchestra members. And we get that series of arches that dwarf the solitary Morse. As a director, do you think in terms of motif?

Shaun Evans: Do I think in terms of motif? I think in terms of pictures, I guess. And also I think in terms of juxtaposition. So I think one image is only powerful when placed against another image. In the case of the one that you’ve just spoken about, those magnificent arches. It was sort of a subconscious feeling really, but as soon as I saw it, I thought, yeah, that’s right. Someone who’s got a huge intellectual life above him, which is kind of glorious, above his head, because of his great intellect. There’s something about that which kind of makes sense to me. But also trying to isolate him in the frame as much as possible to try and keep him on his own, keep him separate from the other actors.

It’s twofold really. It’s a way I think of saying, this is the person who’s taking us through the story. And so the audience completely identifies with this character. But it is also a way of saying in this particular case, he is at his most alone. He is at his most isolated or certainly will be by the end of it. And that is, again, going back to what I was saying about doing the crossword in Christchurch Meadow, he’s not only in his physical place, but I wanted him to feel completely in his emotional place as well. That sounds very highfalutin, doesn’t it?

Jace Lacob: No, mission accomplished.

Shaun Evans: That was the intention.

Jace Lacob: Endeavour and Thursday have had such a complex dynamic over the course of these nine series, one that has been tested time and time again. They kind of found something that was maybe akin to a father-son bond, a mentor-student bond. What does Morse think of Thursday and does that bond extend beyond their working relationship at this point?

Shaun Evans: Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. It’s all so rich and complex. Like I said, being able to tell a story for such a long period of time and the detail, the granular detail of Russell’s writing, but also of Colin Dexter’s as well. Like, in the books, Morse has a very fractious relationship with his own father who left his mother, whose mother then died of cancer, and then Morse was, or Endeavour was, pulled from that environment to go and live with his dad and stepmom with disastrous effect, with disastrous results. And then went to go to Oxford, meandered around for a few years, and then landed as a detective in Oxford with this ready made father figure who not only shows him how to be a better policeman to some degree, but also I, I think provides the first real role model of how to be a man, how to be a good man, how to be a family man. At least that is what Endeavour is putting on him, I think. That’s what Endeavour’s putting on him, because I think by the end he’s completely disappointed in what…spoiler…

Jace Lacob: There is an awkwardness in the clip that we saw between these two men. I mean, Morse invites Thursday to grab lunch and he declines saying he’s just come from the pub with Strange. Morse is really thrown by that, almost emotionally so. What does he make of the distance that has formed between him and Thursday here?

Shaun Evans: What does Endeavour make of the distance? In that moment, he’s I think slightly disappointed because if you think the last time we saw them, Thursday says to him at the end of season eight, go and sort yourself out. And I think Endeavour comes back and wants to show him and to extend the hand of friendship and say, I’ve put that behind me now. Let’s go and have lunch and I won’t have a pint. It’s that opportunity.

And also I think perhaps maybe his spidey senses are tingling, that he’s like, that’s strange Thursday’s being so aloof.

Jace Lacob: Sandy M. from Pennsylvania asks, do you have a favorite filming location, if so, why?

Shaun Evans: Ooh, that’s a good one. Do I have a favorite? I have a couple actually. Well, Oxford itself, I absolutely love. I actually love the place. The architecture is just magnificent and the atmosphere is magnificent. I also loved filming in Venice. Similar, everywhere you look, it’s kind of beautiful.

But I suppose one of the colleges, which was my favorite, was St. Cat’s. I love architecture. It’s designed by Mies van der Rohe and everything about it, it’s just so well thought out and well put together down to the cutlery, the carpets, the chairs, and it was just a delight to be filming in a place which is, and it wouldn’t be everyone’s cup tea, but to be in a place that is so well considered in every single detail. That was one of my favorites. I can’t remember the title of what episode that was, but yeah, that was one of my favorites.

Jace Lacob: Christopher Wren is kind of getting uppity in his grave now.

Shaun Evans: Yeah, I’m sure. Listen, he gets enough accolades.

Jace Lacob: There’s a visible tension between Morse and orchestra guest soloist, Christina Poole in “Prelude”. Might there be romance in Morse’s near future? Is this another in a long line of near misses in Morse’s love life?

Shaun Evans: Potentially, potentially. I often think, sorry, digressing somewhat, in life we’re continually presented with the same problem until we prove that we’ve learned the lesson, right? Do you know what I mean? We keep calling the same lesson to ourselves in many ways until we’re like, oh, actually I’m going to do that a different way now.

Do you know what I mean? And I feel like it’s the same with fiction as well, and I feel like it’s the same in this way. He keeps in some way calling the wrong person to, who’s connected in some way to the crime in a sort of way. And it’s just not going to work out. So the sooner he learns that lesson, the better, I think. That doesn’t answer your question at all, Jace.

Jace Lacob: But very philosophical, and I agree.

Shaun Evans: Thanks very much.

Jace Lacob: Jenny S from Maryland asks, which episode or scene was the most challenging for you emotionally, and how did you see it through?

Shaun Evans: Which episode or scene was the most challenging emotionally? I think she’s probably asking, like, given that it was the end, did it feel emotionally charged in that way? And in a funny way, I think we all wanted the work to be as strong as possible. I’m a big believer in keeping the drama on the screen, you know, not to feel however sad or elated or whatever I may feel about the work that we’re doing that day. I think it’s important to do the work, that’s the most important thing. So, it didn’t really feel that emotionally charged, if that makes any sense.

Jace Lacob: It does make sense. Unrelated, Endeavour harks back to a seemingly simpler time, one that’s devoid of social media and mobiles. Why do you believe the show struck such a chord with its devoted fans?

Shaun Evans: Good question. I think part of what you said is true, the harken back to simpler times, I think that’s an element certainly in it. But I think it’s just, if I may say so, good stories well told, I think—clearly defined characters that are on an interesting emotional journey. It’s difficult to pick that apart. I think it’s a combination of things. I think it’s a combination of things. What do you think?

Jace Lacob: I mean, I think that’s definitely part of it. I think it’s the smartness of the writing. I think it’s Mr. Shaun Evans as Endeavour Morse. Fantastic, he’s good.

The performance of the entire cast, it’s a great ensemble. I think it’s Oxford. I think it’s a weird ephemeral thing that has made it just as beloved as it is. It’s so many different things.

Shaun Evans: I also think the atmosphere of melancholy is really important. I mean, the things that I like either to read, or photographs or, or films or or tv, the atmosphere of melancholy I find really moving and intoxicating, and I think we’ve tried to inject as much of that into this as possible. So maybe that’s an element of it too.

Jace Lacob: It is a very happy show.

Shaun Evans: It’s a happy show?

Jace Lacob: It’s not happy. I mean, it is, but it’s very melancholic. I think that’s precisely the right word for the show. I’m not going to put the Thames Valley Police on you, I swear, but I am curious, did you take anything from the set with you, a prop or a memento to commemorate your time as Morse?

Shaun Evans: Just the jag. Just the jag. I’m joking. It’s parked outside. No. What did I take? I didn’t, well, actually no, I did. Costume is really important for me. When I’m working, I think getting the right costume can really help in so many ways. And I remember when we first started the job, Jesus, a decade ago now, I was looking for the perfect suit, trolling around second hand stores and couldn’t find anything. I was in there for hours and hours and hours and hours and hours. And then went to this final vintage store, and again, was going through all the rails, looking at the suits, and nothing was quite right. I don’t know specifically what I was looking for, but nothing was quite right.

And then at the end, a suit fell off the end of the rail and I thought, oh, that’s interesting. And then I got it and tried it on and was like, oh yeah, this is it. This is the one. It wasn’t this one, but I thought, that’s the perfect suit. And then I wore it till it was threadbare. And they got one made exactly the same. And so I have that, I have that. I mean, what’s someone else going to do with it, right? What’s anyone else going to do with it? It’s only going to get destroyed. And plus, I like it hanging in my wardrobe. I don’t know what I’m going to do with it.

Jace Lacob: Remember it.

Shaun Evans: I should’ve worn it for this interview.

Jace Lacob: Yeah, you should put that on.

Shaun Evans: Haha, let it go Shaun. It’s finished.

Jace Lacob: It’s done, it’s done. This is rather sadly the final series of Endeavour. The bodies are piling up. The goodbyes are coming fast. How would you describe series nine in a single word?

Shaun Evans: I think it’s magnificent. I do. I think it’s magnificent, honestly. I really do. I think it’s really good. I think it’s really good.

Jace Lacob: Shaun Evans, thank you so very much. The magnificent final season of Endeavour begins Sunday, June 18th, 2023 at 9:00 PM Eastern on Masterpiece on PBS. Thank you so very much.

Shaun Evans: Thank you. Thank you, Jace. Thank you very much. Thanks everyone.

Next time on MASTERPIECE:

CLIP

Bright: Criminal damage. Cars smashed and stolen. Violence between gangs of young men on Carfax. In broad daylight! Wonton lawlessness. This is Oxford, not New York!

The final season of Endeavour continues Sunday, June 25 on MASTERPIECE, on PBS.