This script has been lightly edited for clarity.

 

Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

May 1941, Libya. The war and desert have taken a heavy toll on the British Army, but the troops must continue to hold their ground. In this crucial moment, Harry crafts an unorthodox plan to fight off the fearsome German Panzer division.  

 

CLIP

Stan: So how the bloody hell are we going to stop a Panzer division? 

Harry: We’re not going to stop them. We’re going to let them in. 

 

But front and center in this episode is the head of the Sapper unit, Second Lieutenant Rajib Pal. Throughout the series so far, Rajib has held onto his faith in the British Army, believing that by fighting for Britain, he is fighting for India. But in this episode, the scales fall from his eyes as he begins to see the reality of the situation, and his place in the Empire. 

 

CLIP

Rajib: I have lost three of my men. This morning my sappers moved mines with their bare hands. But we’ve always believed that the English with their famous decency would reward our loyal service, but our loyal service does not merit a salute, does not even merit a decent packet of cigarettes. 

 

Actor Ahad Raza Mir joins us this week to discuss the complexity of his character, and how Rajib can simultaneously follow the rules while throwing caution to the wind. 

 

Jace Lacob: This week we are joined by World on Fire star, Ahad Raza Mir. Welcome.

Ahad Raza Mir: Thank you. Thanks for having me. How are you?

Jace Lacob: I’m good. How are you doing?

Ahad Raza Mir: I am doing great.

Jace Lacob: In season two of World on Fire, the action moves in part to North Africa. And in episode one, we meet Rajib, an Indian officer in the British army, the head of a sapper unit. His introduction in episode one sets him up as a compelling character to watch, one with an incredible amount of complexity. What did you initially make of Rajib as a character?

Ahad Raza Mir: It’s interesting because when you think about history, you kind of have to think about being historically accurate and you have to think about, okay, what were these people like at this time? And what were their lives like? And it’s difficult to really get an organic grip on that because sometimes we read things and we hear about history from others. And my fear is sometimes we don’t get it quite right in the tone of it.

So when I approached the character, like however my prep was, I think I dove into the world more than I guess the research. Obviously the history is there, but it’s being on the set, being around those people, and that’s where I found that the, the character kind of organically set itself up. It’s a very complex character. And I think when you think about what he’s fighting for, where he’s fighting and why he’s doing it, it really sets itself up for some interesting work for me. It was a real challenge.

Jace Lacob: What sort of conversations did you have with Pete Bowker about Rajib’s backstory or that you yourself during that research sort of came up with organically?

Ahad Raza Mir: I think when you find him in episode one, he knows what he’s doing. He knows why he’s there and he is that kind of military guy. He knows what his rank is, what his responsibilities are, how to deal with people under him. And that’s kind of how I approached it in the beginning. And as I read the script, I realized that Peter had put just so many complexities into this character that, you know, as an actor, you just read it and you kind of feel like, oh, all right, this character is going into a direction that really helps me as an actor understand the character versus just trying to build it out of thin air.

Jace Lacob: We see a lot of those sort of inherent tensions at play, even in that first scene. Rajib’s men are told explicitly that they’re part of one unit, but that they’re also not equal.

 

CLIP

Captain Briggs: The Italians have scattered the route between us and them with landmines. So for the purpose of this mission, I’d like you to consider yourself a single unit. Albeit that one of you are British and the other, not so.

 

Jace Lacob: Part of the job that the sappers have is putting their lives on the line to defuse these landmines and clear the path before white British army officers can roll in. Does that level of danger sort of underscore the systemic racism that these men are experiencing?

Ahad Raza Mir: It goes into the sad reality of it all, that they were kind of given the worst job, the job that kind of saw most of the casualties at the time, people going and sweeping for mines. And why was it that that job was given to the Indians? And that’s kind of the first little introduction to that systemic racism that we see as viewers, and I as an actor in that first scene felt, how should I react?

And I think if you’ve seen the episode, Rajib doesn’t necessarily react to anything. He’s not letting it get to him. I don’t think Rajib even realizes in the beginning that they are being racist towards him. He doesn’t even look at it like that until really it’s in his face and a lot of his men are the ones that I kind of make it clear to him.

Jace Lacob: Initially he does believe in his mission. He thinks that in fighting for England in this war, he’s really fighting for India. What are his feelings towards the Raj? Does he view the English as benevolent oppressors, as something aspirational? Or are his feelings towards the English more complicated than that?

Ahad Raza Mir: I think it’s a lot more complicated. I think he has a great respect for the British. There are certain moments where he says that he believes in British decency. He believes that the British have brought something that maybe in some way or another, maybe he lacked. But I think again, his loyalties are kind of, at a certain point, vague. The one thing he is loyal to is India. He’s loyal to the people, he’s loyal to where he’s from, but it’s this idea of fighting for India by fighting for England. It’s where these confusions in his brain start coming up.

So I think he doesn’t believe that the British are doing anything wrong. I think it’s, again, it’s the progression of the story where he starts to think that, where are my allegiances? Who am I loyal to? Why am I fighting here? I’m fighting the Nazis because I don’t want India to become part of the German empire. But at the same time, India is still part of another empire. Does he not see that? I don’t know. It makes for some really interesting moments in the show.

Jace Lacob: The sappers head out at the start of episode one and the engineers are almost immediately under fire and Rajib proves his mettle here. He runs towards the sniper to flush him out so Ishwar can shoot him. How does that scene help to show the dichotomy at play within Rajib, that he’s a rule follower, but he’s also willing to throw caution to the wind?

Ahad Raza Mir: I think it’s because he does believe that all life is equal. There’s moments where he’s doing the same work that his sappers are doing. And his lieutenant asks him, Why are you doing this? Why don’t you let them do it? And he says, Well, why would I ask them to do something that I won’t do myself? So he’s leading by example, which is something that a lot of the British officers wouldn’t do. They’d give their jobs to the people under them to do.

And I think that’s kind of the reason that I really like him as a character. He is an action man. He is ready to get things done. And I also think that on a side note, it’s nice. That scene is really powerful because it’s showing that Rajib is not just a character that’s there to fill in the diversity requirement. I hate saying it like that, but sometimes, yes, I find that there’s a lot of diversity for the sake of diversity, but not diversity that’s being authentic towards that character really being there. And why are they there?

So I really enjoy that moment that shows he’s a heroic character. He’s dodging bullets. He’s ready to put his life on the line. And I really appreciate that scene specifically for that.

Jace Lacob: He’s absolutely the action hero of season two.

Ahad Raza Mir: Yeah. And it’s nice to see that, you know? I think if anything, this show shows that everybody did their part. It wasn’t just the British or the Americans, it was the South Asians. They had a huge role to play. I remember before I left to go to the set, to go shoot, I saw pictures of, I’ve got some older family friends that had grandparents that served, and I look at these pictures and I go, man, these guys look like they really went and kicked some butt. So it was nice to see that I could at least do even a little bit to represent that.

Jace Lacob: I want to dive down into the dynamic between Rajib and his sergeant, Ishwar Basu, who, who asked him at one point, is that a British answer or the truth, sir? How would you describe their relationship?

Ahad Raza Mir: It’s the two opposing thoughts. It’s, we’re Indians, we’re serving here because we have to serve here. And the other one is, we’re part of the British Empire and we have to do our part. And one of them sees the reality of what’s going on and the other one is just living kind of in this fantasy that he refuses to give up. And so there’s a lot of turbulence between these guys until they eventually, however, their relationship goes forward or ends, I think it’s all about, they have to realize that they’re in this together. No one’s going home without the other.

So it’s a bit of a turbulent relationship where he kind of needs to put his lieutenant in his place, but he also understands what he’s saying. He knows he’s doing things by the book, but I think part of it is Ishwar Basu is kind of bringing out that emotion and he’s making him think with his heart. Like, look, you’re kind of blindsided by things. And that’s a big role that Basu plays.

Jace Lacob: Rajib forms an unexpected bond with Stan Raddings, who’s forced to travel with the British Indian Army in episode three, and he can’t quite understand why the Sappers are headed directly towards the enemy. How would you describe the dynamic that forms between these two men, particularly over the course of these two episodes, episode three and four?

Ahad Raza Mir: I think the one thing that they both do share is their quirkiness and the little jokes that they make. And it’s funny because they kind of both have the same energy, but it’s resonating and starting from a different place. And as their relationship develops, it really does become like two brothers. They’re two brothers and they don’t see any, well, maybe one of them sees skin, but it’s kind of when Stan sees things that otherwise would be oblivious, he’d be oblivious to them. He sees what’s happening with the rest of the Indians. He sees, why are they being treated differently? He even questions it and he realizes things that are going wrong.

I think it’s a really beautiful friendship that evolves between the two. And Blake’s a great actor and we had a really good time setting up their relationship and the scenes that we did.

Jace Lacob: Those are some of my favorite scenes of season two, I have to say, between the two of them. They end up taking a Nazi soldier prisoner, though they argue as they do with most things, about that. Stan wants to leave him to die in the desert. Rajib insists they can’t do that and instead makes the soldier strip and ride with them. What is his motivation here? Is this the best course of action from a moral or practical position? Is it connecting to that a life is a life is a life mentality that he has?

Ahad Raza Mir: I feel like almost everything he does, it does revolve around that idea of the value of a life is the value of a life is the value of a life. And I remember reading that line and I kept thinking to myself, why does he say this? Why does he say it three times? What’s the point? And I think it’s his mantra constantly reminding him to stay human. I mean, it’s war. We’re doing things that are barbaric, horrible, horrendous, killing people, bombings. You’re seeing all these things, and I think at the end of the day, what Rajib wants more than ever is to stay human throughout the whole process.

 

CLIP

Stan: You’re as bad as Harry

Rajib: Because I won’t let a man starve?

Stan: He’s the enemy.

Rajib: He’s a boy. Letting him live will not alter the outcome of the war.

Stan: Well, like I said, you’re just like Harry.

 

Ahad Raza Mir: Why is it that we have to lose our humanity in this process? And I think that’s where that whole, the value of life, the value of a life comes in is because he tells them, why was it that the Indian regiment was sent to go to enemy lines? Why did that happen? What about us? So what’s the difference? We’re being treated the same. We’re fodder just to be thrown away. Why should I treat this enemy like this? Right now he’s got nothing he can do. He’s not clothed. He’s not going to hurt us. So I think that’s it. That’s his mantra, the value of a life is the value of a life.

 

MIDROLL

 

Jace Lacob: He confronts Stan about why he turned down his offer to accompany the British Indian Army the first time he asked.

 

CLIP

Rajib: You refused once before accepting my invitation to evacuate. Didn’t want to travel with brown skinned men?

Stan: I’m not like that. Don’t make me out to be like that.

Rajib: Then why did you refuse?

Stan: I was just trying—

Rajib: You knew you would be safer with the whites. I shouldn’t really be surprised that it was the Indian regiment who were ordered to escort a supply truck near the enemy lines! The value of a life is the value of a life is the value of a life.

 

Jace Lacob: Does that speech feel particularly relevant in 2023?

Ahad Raza Mir: I think that speech is relevant no matter what. I think it’s relevant a hundred years from now. I think it’s relevant in the past, in the present, in the future. I think at the end of the day, there’s so many ways to put each other in boxes. You’re this color, you’re this, you’re that, you’re from here, you’re from there. But at the end of the day, we’re all just flesh and bone and made of the same things. We all have the same problems. We all love people. We all suffer losses, death, all these things. At the end of the day, we’re all the same.

Jace Lacob: This episode was, I thought, masterfully directed by Meenu Gaur. How did it help to have a South Asian director on an installment with a scene and a sequence like this that tackled racism and classism so head on?

Ahad Raza Mir: Meenu was, first of all, just a pleasure to work with. And with a show this big and we’re going over the stories of these South Asians and what happened to them, people like me and Meenu then, have a certain responsibility on ourselves to actually do this accurately.

And there’s a few ways that I want to touch on that. The first thing is the language. It’s a show that had English, French, German, Hindi, Polish, there’s so many languages happening. And Meenu and I really focused on getting those languages, or at least the Hindi part, getting that right, being accurate and being authentic with it. So that was one challenge that me and her had.

But the comfort that I had with Meenu was also quite sweet because we kind of come from the same industry originally. So it was nice for us to be working on something of this level together. But having her there, it was good because she knows who I am as an actor. She understands my process and it was nice to have her guide me through it because I think more than myself, she wanted Rajib to look like that heroic figure. So, all these cool moments of Rajib that the fun Rajib is all Meenu.

Jace Lacob: I want to touch on a scene that you mentioned earlier in episode four, which picks up a lot of those same threads, particularly an encounter between Rajib and a CO who doesn’t return Rajib’s salute. There’s a flicker in his eyes, but he ends up not confronting the CO as though he’s become accustomed to this sort of lack of respect. What is this moment like for him and why does he end up suppressing his feelings in this initial scene?

Ahad Raza Mir: He’s somebody that realizes that there’s this constant conflict around us right now. We’re scared that we’re going to be bombed or shot at or this. And I think that to have another conflict happening internally is something that maybe he doesn’t want to put the energy into right now. And that’s why he does it. He says, all right, whatever. You don’t want to give me the salute, that’s fine. It’s when he realizes what that’s doing to his soldiers. It’s a bit of a mental torture for his men to see that their captain doesn’t even get a salute. And if he doesn’t get a salute, then what does the CO think of us?

He doesn’t want that internal conflict to happen, but when that conflict internally confronts him in the form of Basu, he realizes, okay, yeah, there is something wrong and I need to stand up not for myself, but for my men who are laying down their lives every day. So, that salute is not just for him, it’s for all of them.

Jace Lacob: We get that in the tension in the scene between Rajib and Ishwar over a discussion of all things about cigarettes and rations, equality and democracy. And Rajib gives the army line, “Punkawala is good enough to fight for the king.” To which Ishwar responds, “Spoken like a true Englishman.” And I think in some ways he does see himself as sort of English first and Indian second. And over the course of this, it’s changing.

Ahad Raza Mir: And the interesting thing is, it’s not necessarily Rajib that wants to change. He doesn’t see anything wrong. It’s when he sees where he is and his circumstances, he realizes he has to change because he’s living in a fantasy. He thinks he’s some white British man. I mean, that’s kind of how I at least approached it to begin with. And when that slowly cracks, that’s when the Indian comes out. That’s when that South Asian comes out. Again, that brotherhood that he realizes he doesn’t want to sacrifice.

Jace Lacob: He reaches his limit with the CO and he deliberately salutes him, daring him to refuse to return the salute. And it’s a confrontation that is a good trouble, one that gets the attention of Ishwar and the other Sappers. And he says, we lead by example, which connects to that mentality that he has to hold it together so that his men will hold it together. How did you read this moment for Rajib? Is it a small moment, or is this a potentially huge moment for him?

Ahad Raza Mir: I think it’s the first level of rebellion. Oh, I think maybe rebellion is the wrong word, but for him to say, no, I’m going to play by the book. And if I really want to play by the book, well, then I’m going to lead by example, and you have to salute me back. If you think about it, he’s not doing anything out of terms. He’s actually speaking facts. He’s saying, you have to salute me. You have to salute me back. You’re breaking a rule here.

And I think the character plays it quite intelligently. He doesn’t say, why aren’t you saluting us? He says, well, you’re supposed to salute us. That’s the way it is. And that’s why he says, you know, you’ve got to lead by example. And that line is not so much for that CO, but it’s more for him and maybe for his men to hear that you lead by example. And again, that connects back to maybe why he doesn’t want to be so sensitive maybe around his own men.

Jace Lacob: There are two episodes left of World on Fire this season. What is coming up for Rajib? What can you tease?

Ahad Raza Mir: You’d kind of expect things to go full circle, maybe, but that’s not necessarily the case. I think with the journey of Rajib up until episode 4, people might understand where he’s going to go after this, but everything changes. He’s not the same Rajib that we saw in episode 1. He’s changed. And he’s changed for the better or worse, that, even I don’t know.

Jace Lacob: You are a third generation entertainment professional, somewhat following in the footsteps of your father and grandfather, albeit in different ways within the industry. Did it feel like it was expected that you would go into entertainment or did your family want you to choose a different direction?

Ahad Raza Mir: So, I grew up in Canada, and my father and my family kept me away from the spotlight that my dad was under. So I moved at quite a young age. So, I wasn’t entirely aware of how things were back home in Pakistan. I would come and go after about 2014 when my family had moved back and I remember getting to the airport and people were surrounding my dad and taking pictures and I stopped and looked at my father for the first time and went, Who the hell are you?

I guess I appreciate now, later, like I’m thinking about this almost 10 years down the line, which is that I I’m glad that he kind of kept me away from that stuff because that way this natural inclination I have towards the arts was a real thing. It wasn’t like, oh, well, my dad did it. My grandfather did it. So I should do it. I was in business school for the longest time, I started doing my bachelors in business. And for some reason, I just kept going back to the arts. I did theater when I was in Canada, I went to a performing arts high school. And then eventually I switched from doing a BBA to doing my BFA in drama.

And so over there, I worked as a theater actor for quite some time. I did a lot of Shakespeare, and I’m actually leaving to go to Toronto next week to do Hamlet. And I’m glad all that happened because it meant that there is something maybe in our blood, I guess, that makes us want to do the arts, makes us want to act, makes us want to do…and I’ve always known, which is the biggest difference. I’ve always known this is what I wanted to do. I don’t remember a moment where I was like, Oh, uh, I want to be a doctor or I want to be a psychologist or whatever. I’ve always known this is what I want to do. And I consider myself very lucky, even in the situation that I am, that I’ve been quite successful in the past couple of years of my career. And I’m very grateful. Again to this point, I think I’m lucky to be working as an actor because it’s probably one of the toughest, toughest businesses to be in.

Jace Lacob: Truly, especially in 2023.

Ahad Raza Mir: Yeah.

Jace Lacob: Do you feel like we’re finally getting to a tipping point for South Asian representation on Western television and in film, or does the entertainment industry still have many miles to go on that front?

Ahad Raza Mir: That’s a really good question. I think we still have quite a ways to go. And that’s not to say that there’s a lot of representation going around and there’s a lot of people of color being cast in South Asians being cast in a lot of stuff. I think the only problem I have is that they’re being cast just for the sake of being cast. And I think there’s a huge problem there.

Like, we shouldn’t be not casting white people or not casting brown people. We should be casting just keeping in mind that, you know, how does the world look now? You look at places like London. London is the most multicultural city I’ve ever seen in my life, and I feel like that in the UK, especially is starting to get is starting to reflect on television.

I’m going to Toronto to play Hamlet next week. I’m leaving for rehearsals. And the biggest reason I do that show is so that if there’s a South Asian kid in the audience who sees me and I’m playing Hamlet and they go, Hey, if that guy can do it, why the hell can’t I? So I think we need more South Asian actors also. That’s the thing. I think we’re still limited. And I think competition is also very healthy. And I think that’s the direction to go. We should start casting things just and writing roles that anyone can fit into.

Jace Lacob: Ahad Raza Mir. Thank you so very much.

Ahad Raza Mir: Thank you. It was lovely talking to you.

Jace Lacob: And you.

 

And we’re back with World on Fire historical advisor Richard Overy to unpack some historical topics from Episode Four. 

 

Jace Lacob: We see French resistance operations in effect, specifically hiding British airmen in the cellar, which feels very ‘Allo ‘Allo to me. How significant were these resistance efforts in terms of smuggling British airmen who had either parachuted in or been shot down over France to return them to Britain?

Richard Overy: Well it was important, of course, and those who were involved were a tiny minority, but they bravely did what they had to do. I did say as this World on Fire series was being produced, that they really got this too early. The networks and the smuggling out and so on becomes much more important in ‘42, ‘43 as many airmen are shot down during the bombing campaign and so on.

But it was real enough, yes. But we shouldn’t exaggerate it. The overwhelming bulk of French people during this period laid low, didn’t know what the Germans were going to do, were worried about being accused of helping the Allies and so on. And those who did help did so at great risk, and with great courage. But yes, it happened. They smuggled them out to Spain, or Marseille, and they went back to fight again.

Jace Lacob: What types of people were involved with the French resistance? Did they come from all walks of life? What commonality connected them?

Richard Overy: No, they came from all walks of life. If you like, they were united by one thing, their belief that the war continued, even though France had been defeated. The civilians would take up the slack and they would now become the enemy of their enemy, and this included professors, doctors, farmers, workers. But they were a tiny, tiny percentage of the French population. Understandably, you don’t want to run risks. And these people ran risks and suffered for it.

Jace Lacob: What was the Panzer Division and why were they quite so feared?

Richard Overy: The Germans had worked out that it was no good just putting your tanks together and sending them forward because your tanks would get knocked out, and then what do you do? A Panzer Division is a fearsome division, not because of the tanks, because it’s got everything, anti-air, anti-tank, artillery, infantry, and they all move together as an integrated unit, and that’s what gave them their power. Not just the tanks.

And they were well organized. Above all, they had very good communication, which the British and the French didn’t have for a long time, you know, tank to tank radio and so on and so on. So they were a model, if you like, of the efficient use of up to date weapons.

And combined with air power, of course, it was a pretty ruthless military machine. And that’s why people worried about them. It took a long time before the British imitated the Panzer Division and began to create these all-armed divisions with a core of tanks capable of fighting the Panzer Divisions on their own terms.

Jace Lacob: We mentioned Empire efforts in the previous episode and in this episode we meet the Australian Army and they are quite a rowdy bunch. What was the role of the Australian Army within Commonwealth efforts during World War II? What were they seen as?

Richard Overy: Well, the Australians were keen to join the war, and there were strong memories of what had happened at Gallipoli with the Anzac forces during the First World War. So there was some reluctance to send Australians to the Middle East, but in the end Churchill got the Australians sent to the Middle East where they joined the war in North Africa. I think perhaps World on Fire gives a pretty good impression of Australians. I mean, they’re not like the British. They were a tough bunch. But the war changed entirely later on with the Japanese invasion of the South Pacific. Australians were all withdrawn back to Australia, and they joined the American war effort in New Guinea and the islands. They didn’t take any further part in the war in Europe.

New Zealanders on the other hand did. The New Zealand Division served in North Africa all the way through the war, in fact, in Europe. And New Zealand, uh, had the highest rate of conscription of any of the British Empire areas. Australians, they were an important addition. Otherwise, the British would have had to send out more British divisions, which they were unwilling to do.

Jace Lacob: So Kiwi power. They stayed. That’s amazing. I had no idea. Kasia and Jan watch Pathé newsreels at the cinema, this being a typical way that citizens were visually informed of war efforts and given an opportunity to see first-hand footage. How important was the role of Pathé in terms of providing information to the public at the time?

Richard Overy: I think it was very important. The public desperately wanted to know what was going on. Newspaper readership, circulation went up a lot during the war. But newspapers of course it was very difficult to know what you could publish, and the censor was always there encouraging them not to reveal too much about what was going on.

Pathé news doesn’t give away secrets. But it makes the war real for the British, because apart from the Battle of Britain and the Blitz, the rest of the war for Britain is fought somewhere else. And so for the audience whose sons, brothers, fathers and so on are in the armed forces, you desperately want to see in black and white what’s going on. What does it look like? Where are they? And I think from that point of view, the Pathé newsreels were extremely important. Well, all of the cinema newsreels were extremely important. They kept the British public in touch with what was going on.

Jace Lacob: And how often were these cinema newsreels changed out or updated? Was the news anywhere near as “current” as we’d expect today in our 24-hour news cycle?

Richard Overy: No, it wasn’t. No. Often you had to wait until the film had been processed and brought back. You had to wait until it had been approved by the military authorities and so on. So quite often there’d be not a big lag, but a lag of days before you would actually see what was going on. Nothing like today, no instantaneous news and no social media either. Which is why people were so keen to go to the cinema. Again, cinema attendances went up enormously during the war. And one of the reasons, I mean, people just wanted to see if they could find out more than they could find out from the radio and from the newspapers.

Jace Lacob: This episode also touches on war rations, not only for the soldiers in the field, but also the British public at home. What sort of rations were households given during the war and what products were impossible to get other than via the black market?

Richard Overy: Well, there was a very small black market in Britain. Rationing was very well organized. It was a rather boring diet, but on the whole, the British ate better than almost anyone else in Europe, ate much better than the Germans, for example. And quite a lot of stuff was not on ration, bread, for example. What you couldn’t get very easily were things like eggs and fresh milk. You couldn’t get fruit and vegetables or fish as easily as you could before. But you know, they were certainly available. As everywhere in the Second World War, people ate better in the countryside, of course, than they ate in the cities.

But although the British after the war made a great deal about rationing and how they pulled in their belts and so on and so on, but on the whole, there was no experience of hunger in Britain, whereas in much of Europe that was something experienced at points during the war, often intensely so. If you read accounts occasionally of Churchill and some of his cabinets and some of the elite who’ve written their memoirs or left their diaries, you see what they eat. It’s quite extraordinary. The rich still went to a club and they could still sit there and be eating pheasants and so on and foie de gras and whatever it is and dining it with champagne. Hardship was not extended right across the social scale.

Jace Lacob: I mean, is that just indicative of the sort of classist society, the strata that exist within British society? Is that just sort of reinforcing those notions that this is for thee but not for me?

Richard Overy: Yes. No, indeed. You see in World on Fire, Robina is never really very short of food. But if you went to a working-class household in Manchester, you would find, I think, a rather different experience. But nonetheless, you wouldn’t find, as I say, you wouldn’t find them hungry. In fact, in many cases, workers ate better during the war because of the rations, because they were all entitled to these things and didn’t have to fight for them. Most of the research on diet in Britain in the Second World War found people actually healthier by the beginning.

Jace Lacob: Richard Overy, thank you so very much.

Richard Overy: My pleasure.

 

Next time, as the walls begin to close in on Kasia’s target, Sir James Danemere finds that his latest asset might be more valuable than he initially thought. 

 

CLIP

Sir James: Well, I’m impressed. We’ve thrown the book at her, nothing. But you, she won’t be immune to you.  

 

Actor Mark Bonnar joins the podcast to explore the fine line between what’s tactic and what’s authentic in his quicksilver character Sir James.