Jace Lacob I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

At the beginning of Sanditon’s first season, Esther Denham might not have been your favorite character. She was cutting, cruel and often appallingly snide.

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Esther Mr Tom Parker is a monomaniac who is well on the way to ruining himself and his family with his crazy schemes.

Charlotte You don’t really think that? I think his ideas are admirable.

Esther You wait till he bankrupts himself. I have nothing against his wife, indeed I feel very sorry for her. His brother Arthur is a buffoon, as you’ve no doubt discovered for yourself, and Sidney…

Charlotte I have not yet had the pleasure.

Esther Very unstable and unreliable. I advise you to be on your guard.

Jace Esther hid a softer side, and her slow-boil romance with the dedicated Lord Babington became one of the series’ most surprising happy endings by the close of season one.

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Babington I could never try to lead or constrain you, Esther. All I ask is to walk through life by your side.

Esther Very well then.

Babington You accept me?

Esther Stop talking before I change my mind.

Jace But the new Lady Babington keeps her own secrets this season — and the revelation of her struggles to bear a child give the often icy Esther a human touch.

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Dr Fuchs I believe you have a severe inflammation of the intestines, Lady Babington –

Lady Denham Oh, Poppycock! It’s those preposterous herbs!

Dr Fuchs Herbs, meine dam?

Lady Denham They came from some spurious crone in Melmead. She drinks them in tea.

Dr Fuchs May I see?  Ja. This is certainly the cause of the discomfort. I suggest you stop at once. This will only make things worse.

Esther I cannot stop. They’re the only hope I have!

Jace Charlotte Spencer was busy during her holiday from the Sanditon shores, and she joins us again on the podcast to reveal what she’s drawn from playing Esther, and the surprising famous character which inspired her memorable Ted Lasso guest appearance.

Jace This week we are joined by Sanditon star Charlotte Spencer. Welcome.

Charlotte Spencer Hello.

Jace So I want to talk about the Esther we meet when season two kicks off. She’s a very different beast to the Esther we knew in season one. How do you feel her marriage to Babington changed her? And do you see her as having been softened by the experience of discovering love?

Charlotte Absolutely. I think her marriage to Babington, it’s not that he’s changed her. I think it’s the fact that she’s found love. She now knows what love feels like for the first time, probably in a very long time in her life. And it’s not toxic love. It’s true, beautiful love.

Jace We’ll talk about that toxic love in a little bit, Esther thankfully returns with her innately sharp wit intact. I love the moment when she offers Allison advice for landing a husband.

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Alison I believe you met your husband here last summer, Lady Babington. Have you any advice for one hoping to find a good match of her own?

Esther Disdain his every word. If he persists, marry him.

Jace It is, to me, is sort of the epitome of Esther’s sort of wit. This is her M.O. to a tee. She was able to sort of land Babington, and now she’s imparting this to to Alison in a true sort of Esther fashion. Even with that sort of wit intact, what was the biggest change you experienced with playing Esther in season two versus playing her in season one?

Charlotte Well, she’s had to let her guard down. So I feel like she’s in a she’s never been in this territory before. And so it’s very new to her and she’s almost like, you know, when a little hermit crab changes its shell and it’s looking for a new home and she’s just getting used to it. But it’s it’s a good Esther. It’s a it’s a softer Esther that she still has her sharp wit.

Jace So what would her new hermit crab shell be then? She’s traded it for a new shell. Is it a slightly softer, plusher shell, perhaps? Or how would you describe her new hermit crab shell?

Charlotte Her new shell is softer and more open-minded, more loving, and I think more accepting.

Jace I’d say if she has one fatal flaw, it’s perhaps her dynamic with Edward. She definitely has hardened her heart toward her stepbrother, but she seems horrified and shocked when she runs into him in Sanditon. What does Esther make of his sudden appearance, and how does it set her progress back?

Charlotte I think that when she meets Edwards again, all those old feelings come rushing back. And it’s fear and uncertainty. I think that she relives it a little bit when she sees him and her life with Babington, and she was able to escape that and start a new one and be happy. To see Edward is just a reminder of. You know, it’s like. Being bitten by a snake, she then sees it again, and she doesn’t really know what to do.

Jace Spoiler alert: Mark Stanley isn’t back this season as Babington due to scheduling issues, and it feels like Justin Young and the writers rejiggered the plot around that in a very creative way to still have Esther in the mix. Was it difficult at all to return as Esther, knowing that there would be an element of her storyline happening, as it were, off screen?

Charlotte Yes and no. I think that me and Mark, I mean, we worked so well together on the first season that that relationship between Esther and Babington was so established that I always knew going into it that Esther was very much in love and still very much was with Babington. And so to to have kind of stabilized that really helped to go into it again. And then she is just visiting her aunt and Sanditon and all the characters that she’d met before. So it’s almost like when anyone has a partner that goes away and when you’re solid in your relationship, it doesn’t matter. You still feel you still feel that love. And so it was hard in one way, but not really in another.

Jace I mean, we know that she’s not there just to visit her aunt, but as we said, to sort of recover after this recent miscarriage. Lady Denham makes the conversation about Esther giving Babington an heir. But I’m curious how a child would transform Esther. Does she see it either consciously or subconsciously as a way of saving herself from her own childhood, her own past rewriting her story in a way?

Charlotte I think it’s, I think it’s a mixture of a couple of things. Obviously, at that time, women were expected to have children and if you didn’t, you were a failure, especially if you were married. And if you did not provide your husband with an heir, you were a failure. I don’t think Esther wants to fail, and it’s not really for her, it’s more for her husband. She wants to make Babington proud, and that is one way that she can do it. On top of it, I do think that she perhaps wants to know what. That love of a child really feels like it might soften her even more.

Jace Along those lines, Sandtion is a show about dreams, but it is a show about capital. Gaining fortunes, losing fortunes, investing, speculating. So if there are these expectations of Esther producing an heir, how does she reconcile her struggle to attain motherhood with the need of a woman to provide her husband an heir in order to hold on to the fortune that a family has amassed?

Charlotte I honestly don’t think at any point I thought of the fortune, and I don’t know whether that was a subconscious thing on my level or whether I wasn’t doing my job properly. I never thought at any point that she was worried about the fortune, I really think that’s what happened in season one in regards to Edward and the money, I honestly do not think that Esther is driven by money at all.

Jace I mean, I loved the line, she says:

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Esther The doctors told me I came perilously close to losing my own life. They said it would be dangerous, fatal even, to try again. Which only made me more determined to prove them wrong.

Jace And that goes to what we were saying earlier about that, that sort of backbone of steel that Esther has. But is it merely stubbornness that pushes her towards risking her own life to become pregnant, or is it something else altogether?

Charlotte I think it’s part her stubbornness, and her determination. And partly that she doesn’t want to admit that her body may not be able to do it. And unfortunately, there’s still a stigma around it. And it’s incredibly hard when you go through something like that and to feel this determination like, if you will, your body enough to do it, that it will happen. And there’s a lot of different emotions that you go through and different, different stages, and one part is denial.

Jace I mean, what’s amazing to me is that we are sitting here sort of 200 years later, and as you say, there is still a stigma connected to miscarriage. But we are looking at this through the lens of the Regency Era and to have a Regency woman go through this feels almost transgressive in a way, it feels really powerful. Did you see it that way, in terms of creating this character in this season?

Charlotte Absolutely. There is a, I feel that women have a power that has transcended the ages. There are things that are expected of women and you’re almost less of a woman if you can’t do certain things and the definition of women, are not the things that are expected that your body should do. The definition of a woman is far deeper than that, and it’s on a spiritual level and it’s something it’s something, I can’t explain it. It’s not these things that your body can or can’t do. it’s a feeling.

Jace I mean Justin Young has described Sanditon as being an inherently feminist show that would seem to sort of gel with what you were saying in looking at season two. Did it feel like the show had taken on more of a feminist bent?

Charlotte I absolutely. I just love the fact that, I understand that fans will be upset with some of the lead males not returning from season one. But I was really thrilled that the girls came back. And what’s more, there are all these amazing women basically running the show.

Jace Before this next question, a brief word from our sponsors… 

Jace Like the proverbial bad penny, Edward turns up in Sanditon, resulting in a very strained reunion scene between him and Esther.

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Edward Esther.

Esther I have nothing to say to you.

Edward My life has been quite empty without you in it. I know it’s not what you want to hear, but it’s the truth –

Esther All I want to hear is the door closing behind you.

Jace Is she being entirely truthful here? Has she completely banished him from her mind in her new life with Babington?

Charlotte I actually think she has. Yes, I truly think that once her life with Bebington started away from Sanditon, away from it all, I do think that she was. Incredibly happy. And there was no need to think of Edward.

Jace Esther gains the upper hand here, but Edward still elicits the the smallest flinch from her when he says, ‘You look well, Esther, radiant with health and happiness.’ How much power does he have in that moment? And as an actor, how do you depict that shift in the power dynamic in a scene?

Charlotte That was a very interesting scene, because it’s questioning whether he knows me that well, whether he means it and is being, he’s trying to charm me, or whether there was an undertone of do you know, something? And it’s this it’s that, it’s treading a line between trying to be in power in that moment and also fear.

Jace And then she does read into his reappearance, between Edward’s reappearance, Dr. Fuchs’ prognosis that God has taken against her — does she feel cursed in this moment that these things she has tried to sort of avoid continually keep coming back to trip her up?

Charlotte Absolutely. I feel she is slightly paranoid at this point. Her emotions are not stable. She’s incredibly vulnerable, and for her enemy, basically to come back again and to see him  is hard on her. And I think these thoughts start to creep into her mind and almost try and sabotage her.

Jace So she’s feeling like Edward has returned, the cards are stacked against her the signs are sort of pointing towards her not being able to become pregnant again, and she becomes willing to sort of try anything. She consults the midwife of Melmeade, Mrs. Potter, to attain a cure for her condition. We’re seeing a new sort of desperation to Esther here that’s bordering on obsessive. Even as these herbs that she’s obtained are making her ill, how far is she willing to go to achieve her ends here?

Charlotte I think she wouldn’t stop. I think when she she says, ‘I came perilously close to losing my life,’ that’s how far she’d go. I honestly believe it. And it’s to do with the fact that she still doesn’t believe that she’s enough herself. And I think that being around Edward, being back in Sanditon, it kind of, those those fears creep back in, and she doesn’t think she’s good enough. And the only thing that’s going to get her through this is to become pregnant.

Jace But we end up seeing sort of elements of that goodness, a new goodness with her, she attempts to pay Miss Hankins back for her act of kindness by pushing Edward to invite her to dance. You know, are these efforts just to show kindness to Miss Hankins, or is it also intended to test Edward’s humanity? Is this sort of altruism, but also something selfish?

Charlotte I think it’s both. I think Esther is a clever, is a very intelligent woman. So it’s, ‘OK if you want to proveit  to me, you can maybe prove it like this, Edward.’ But at the same time, she is transitioning. She knows what love feels like now, and I feel like, it almost sounds too emotional, I’m an emotional person anyway, so it’s making me emotional speaking about it because she has so much love, so much love that she has not been able to give for such a long time. And not only does she love Babington, but she loved that baby. And she has so much love to give.

Jace I mean, that begs the question, how much love do you have for Esther?

Charlotte Oh, so much. It’s just, I think she’s an incredible, incredible woman. I admire her.

Jace Has Esther influenced you?

Charlotte Yes, absolutely. I’m not as witty, unfortunately, I’m not as quick on the mark as she is, but, um.

Jace But I mean, none of us are we don’t have, you know, Justin Young writing bon mots for us to throw out.

Charlotte Exactly. But her strength. And actually, her love.

Jace The other shoe, of course, drops when Clara Brereton returns carrying Edward’s child. What is Esther’s reaction to this, particularly in the wake of her own struggles to become pregnant?

Charlotte I think it’s just utter disbelief. Not only does she not want to see either of these people, but there will be a wave of jealousy flooding her body that Clara is able to conceive and be pregnant and hold the child and have a baby. And that also shows how strong Esther, that she will be there for her no matter what. And she puts her own feelings aside. That’s why I love the woman.

Jace Esther is suddenly back to her eye-rolling and sarcastic old self within minutes of Clara setting foot in Sanditon House. What sort of emotions does Clara stir up within Esther, and is this sort of a bit like as an adult when you go to your parents’ house, you suddenly revert to being a teenager again?

Charlotte I think so. I think that, you know, being in Sanditon has reminded her both of old things and maybe skeletons in the closet, old ghosts and demons and and they just seem to be reappearing. It’s almost like she’s going through a bit of a spiritual journey and having to face these things before she can move on and be truly happy.

Jace So here’s Clara. She’s nine months pregnant. Esther has lost a baby. There’s always been a rivalry between these two women, but there is suddenly a real sense of hurt and anguish that Esther experiences, even just looking at the very pregnant Clara. Does she see Clara then, as the manifestation of everything she can’t have in her life?

Charlotte Absolutely, yes. This is a living nightmare at this point. An absolute living nightmare is everything that she doesn’t want. And she doesn’t know what to do.

Jace But then it gets worse this living nightmare because Esther and Clara start sparring as there has remained behind to keep an eye on Clara and her aunt’s silver. But Clara goes into labor on the stairs and forces Esther to help her. I mean, is this now sort of the worst nightmare of all for Esther that her very pregnant rival is having a baby and she has to help deliver this baby?

Charlotte I think so, but I think at that point, something else kicks in, a feeling of, that she has to help this woman because she knows what this feels like. She knows the fear she knows and I think she doesn’t want another woman to go through that and especially not alone. So she pushes her own feelings to one side. And, yeah the woman’s instinct kicks in.

Jace So another reason to love Esther.

Charlotte Exactly

Jace Putting aside the sort of horror moment of it. I love this birth sequence for many reasons, not least of which is Esther’s rapier wit here.

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Esther Oh, you would have to do this while the staff are absent, just to spite me!

Clara I can go no further.

Esther You cannot bear this child on the stairs, given it was conceived on the floor. That would hardly be an auspicious beginning Will you release my hand?!.

Jace What did you make of this scene and that line when you read it in the script for episode three?

Charlotte laughed out loud when I read that line, she is still quick, even in the most dire of situations. But the scene between Esther and Clara there is one of the best I think I’ve ever been a part of and actually me and Lily became very close because of it, we hugged and we I think we went for a glass of wine or something afterwards. It was there. It was quite a, it was quite a scene and Lily is such an incredible actress, I could not have asked for a better actress to play against in that scene.

Jace So I want I want to dig into that a little more because there is so much that’s unspoken between Clara and Esther here, even as Esther conceals her emotion behind that sort of shining armor of piercing sarcasm. These two genuinely hate each other, and both make it clear to the other that they do, as they struggle up the stairs. Rather miraculously, Esther is able to help Clara deliver the baby, and Clara afterwards seems numb, but it’s Esther who holds the newborn baby in her arms, and she looks at him with such intense love and devotion that it’s utterly heartbreaking. What is going through Esther’s head in these moments and is experiencing a vicarious sort of mother’s love here?

Charlotte She is totally in love with that child, totally. She sees just that she’s been ready to love for such a long time and to then hold that baby in her arms. She just is filled with love.

Jace I mean, to me, that moment was such a perfect culmination, not just of the three episodes of this season, but everything that has come before for Esther on Sanditon. It just is such a change from that Esther, we meet in episode one of season one to see her, with this sort of beatific expression on her face as she looks at this innocent child. I felt like we could not get more distance between this Esther and the Esther we started with at the beginning of season one.

Charlotte Yeah, I think that’s why she’s, she’s always had that inside of her since, probably since she was a child. And it has been stifled and put down and manipulated. And she has just wanted to let that love out for such a long time.

Jace There are still quite a few twists and turns ahead for Lady Esther Babington. What can you tell us about where her storyline is going in the back half of this season?

Charlotte Her strength will amaze you.

Jace Hmm…One of my favorite moments of television last year was the rather psychedelic ‘Beard After Hours’ episode of Ted Lasso, where Charlotte Spencer turns up as Mary, a.k.a. Red. How did this come about, and how would you describe working on Ted Lasso?

Charlotte Well, it was honestly, it was a little someone said to me, ‘Hey, you’ve worked with this writer before, and they like to see you for a part in Ted Lasso.’ So I was like, ‘Cool yeah, yeah, sure.’ So I went for it, got the part. Had, I was only on that for three days filming, I had such a wonderful time. And like I said, I’m an emotional person, that when they said ‘Wrap!’ I was only on it for three days, I cried.

Jace Oh!

Charlotte It was so lovely. And the guy that plays Coach Beard is just the funniest man I think I’ve ever met. And Jason Sudekis was on set and he was so lovely, and just the vibe on set is like a beautiful little family, and they have made such a special show just to be even just a teeny part of it, I feel very grateful.

Jace I mean, there is an intensity to that character that was mesmerizing to watch both for Beard and for the viewer. What did you make of her as a character and how was that character pitched to you?

Charlotte Oh I just channeled Jessica Rabbit.

Jace Oh God, that’s amazing.

Charlotte That was all I was thinking of the whole time. I was like, ‘She’s in a red dress. She’s got her red hair. She’s kind of strange and is plucked out of the air. And there she is. Jessica Rabbit.’

Jace That’s…that’s amazing. Charlotte Spencer, thank you so very much.

Charlotte Thank you so much.

Jace Charlotte Heywood came to Sanditon in season one with an eye for adventure and excitement. And in this second season, her younger sister, Alison, takes up that charge.

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Alison Look, Charlotte. Do you suppose my captain is among them?

Charlotte Your captain?

Alison He is mine. His letters leave no room for doubt. And I am his.

Jace Sanditon newcomer Rosie Graham joins the podcast April 10.

MASTERPIECE Studio is hosted by me, Jace Lacob, and produced by Nick Andersen. Elisheba Ittoop is our editor. The executive producer of MASTERPIECE is Susanne Simpson.