This script has been lightly edited for clarity

 

Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

It’s on a pleasant, sun-dappled afternoon carriage ride that we first meet Sophia Western’s lady’s maid, Honour Newton. Sophia and Honour ride through the English countryside on their way to Western House. The sounds of birds and forest fill the air. 

CLIP

Sophia: Oh, I’ve missed this all so much. Listen, you can hear the birdsong.

Honour: They do very well on a plate.

Sophia: You’re such a Londoner.

Honour: I like my comforts, Miss. I like my clean white linen. Ideas above my station.

 

Unlike Sophia, Honour is a city girl through and through. And although she’s not quite at home in this rural setting, she still stands by Sophia, no matter the situation. 

CLIP

Sophia: Honour, don’t leave me.

Honour: Oh. There, there.

Sophia: If I’ve been awful to you…

Honour: You haven’t. Well, not much anyway.

 

Being nearly a decade older than Sophia, Honour has the gift of life experience. While Sophia navigates the whirlwind of a star-crossed love and her aunt’s undesirable matchmaking attempts, Honour provides a more practical, sage perspective, complete with her, uh, trademark candor. 

CLIP

Sophia: He’ll write. Of course he will. And if he doesn’t it means he didn’t love me afterall. He never did or he wouldn’t have left me.

Honour: Exactly! The cheek of it. And him a poor, beggarly, bastardly fellow!

Sophia: How dare you! He is an angel.

 

Actor Pearl Mackie joins the podcast to discuss how Honour manages to advise and support her friend and employer, Sophia, when that very same advice sometimes goes against the wishes of the heart. 

Jace Lacob: And this week we are joined by Tom Jones star Pearl Mackie. Welcome Pearl.

Pearl Mackie: Thank you very much, and thank you for having me.

Jace Lacob: My pleasure. I love Honour’s introduction in the first episode of Tom Jones, she and Sophia are in the carriage, and Sophia is sort of waxing poetic about the songbirds and the countryside and all Honour can say is, “They do very well on a plate.” She’s just such a city girl at heart. What did you make of the character of Honour Newton?

Pearl Mackie: Jace, I love that introduction as well. I thought it was hilarious. I’m a Londoner myself, so I was like, okay. Immediately I was like, that’s something I can definitely kind of relate to. But I think the characterization as a whole, is sort of really not what I was expecting when I was first presented with the script.

I’d heard of the book, but I’d never read it myself. And you know, the typical kind of maid-mistress relationship is really not what you find when I first sort of started reading the script. I feel like Honour and Sophia leapt off the page kind of immediately as more like friends, more like, you know, the relationship you have with an older sister or an older cousin or something like that. There’s definitely a familiarity there, which I think allows Honour to be honest about her feelings, which I think is brilliant and really leads to some wonderfully frank remarks throughout the piece, especially the opening as well.

And I found that really refreshing actually. And I felt that it really gave her a voice within the storyline, even though, you know, obviously she is sort of a companion-type to Sophia throughout her journey. I really felt like she was real and she really felt alive. Which is kind of what I look for in any script really. But yeah, I was pleasantly surprised.

Jace Lacob: I love that you mentioned her honesty because it’s that practicality that allows Sophia to sort of have her head in the clouds a lot of the time. And then Honour can sort of bring her back to earth with these sort of carefully aimed barbs. She can cross those class lines in a way that most servants and mistresses can’t, as you say. And she has this candor and honesty with Sophia that is, as you say, it’s really refreshing and different to find in a period drama. What did you make of that candor, that outspokenness that she has?

Pearl Mackie: I think talking to Georgia Paris, our wonderful director, and with Sophie, who played Sophia, we kind of had some discussions quite early on about their relationship and about what it would be like.

I feel like what we kind of decided was that they had sort of been together for a long time and you know, where Honour is obviously older than Sophia, they’re both relatively young. So, I feel like there’s definitely an element of like, growing up together and understanding each other. And I think that was really important for us to keep open and playful as well as being able to deliver some home truths when necessary.

Whether they’re listened to or not, I think Honour is definitely there going, okay, I understand, yay, I get it. You’re in love. This is great. But let’s be careful. She definitely gives a couple of warnings about Tom and things that she’s heard as well.

Jace Lacob: You mentioned Honour’s feelings about Tom Jones. She’s initially firmly against Sophia, giving her heart to Tom, who she describes as being a bad boy, though Sophia chalks that up to servant’s gossip. How does Honour view Tom as a match for Sophia, why is she so against him?

Pearl Mackie: I don’t think it’s necessarily that she’s against him as a match as such. I think she can see his charms and she can see that Sophia is clearly very enamored by him. I think it’s just a word of warning, of just being like, just be cautious. I’ve seen this kind of man in the world before. All of his intentions might not be wholly honorable. So I think it’s that kind of warning dynamic of just being like, just being cautious and just being like, I know this is the first time you’re in love, but men sometimes do do this. And especially if he’s gallivanting with many other women, then potentially this is what he says to all of them.

Jace Lacob: Tread carefully, my lady.

Pearl Mackie: Yeah. Yes, exactly.

Jace Lacob: What does Honour make of Sophia’s line about Tom, “He doesn’t look at me as though I’m some kind of exotic flower.” Does that strike a chord within Honour at all, that sense of belonging?

Pearl Mackie: Yeah, I mean, I think definitely. You know, Honour and Sophia are two black women A.) within a period drama, which is marvelous, but also, you know, the way that Gwyneth has approached casting two black women within those roles is that she’s not shying away from the race and sort of pretending that it doesn’t exist. She’s very much going headfirst and explaining that Sophia was the daughter of an enslaved woman and a slave master and sort of explores the racism that they would’ve experienced in that time.

That’s certainly something that I recognized reading the script as myself, that I think there’s definitely a sort of exoticized quality to the way that people view black women. Not as much in our modern times, but I think looking at it throughout history and especially in a period where, for all intents and purposes in our world, Honour and Sophia are sort of the only Black women that we see.

So, especially in the countryside, people do seem to look at her like she’s some kind of exotic creature and not actually appreciate her for who she is. And for a person it’s sort of all, it’s kind of a fantasy. It’s reductive, but it is honest.

Jace Lacob: There is that stunning moment in the third episode when Honour removes all of the feathers and adornments from Sophia’s costume,

 

CLIP

Sophia: The silly hair and lacing so tight I can’t breathe.

Honour: I think I’m going to leave it there, today miss. Otherwise it’ll take me forever to put it back up in the morning. Now, about your face…

Sophia: This paint…

Honour: We might have to start using it all the way down Miss. If you’re to look like all the other ladies.

Sophia: No. Take it off. All of it

 

Jace Lacob: What did you make of this very loaded moment between these two women of color in a period drama?

Pearl Mackie: I mean, I thought it was actually a really, really bold move on the part of the production team, and Gwyneth, and Georgia. Because the fact of the matter was that the makeup at the time was white powder, white faces, very rouge cheeks. That was the look.

Obviously for Sophia moving into these circles, especially with Lady Bellaston, it feels horrible. And it feels really like Lady Bellaston is trying to wrong foot her and sort of erase her identity as well within that and potentially erase the kind of exoticized idea of her that everyone seems to have, but I think that moment is really, really poignant for both of them. And it was for us as well. When we were filming it, we were like, this is…it’s not something that I’ve seen before and it’s not something that I’ve seen tackled in a period drama with empathy and with sympathy from Honour’s part. And she’s like, I  know I’m supposed to do this, but I want you to know that I don’t want to do this. And I feel horrible even suggesting that that is what we have to do.

I think even quite early on you’re very aware that defying her, especially for Honour, is like, well, that’s just, I’d just be out on the street. So I can’t really do that. But I think as far as she can, I think she wants to show Sophia that she doesn’t agree with this and that she feels her pain.

Jace Lacob: It is such a, to me, a powerful reclamation of Sophia’s identity as a mixed-race woman. There’s such a sense of pride on the part of Honour when Sophia says, take it off, all of it. What goes through Honour’s head here, and as a woman of color yourself, what went through your own when filming this scene that is taking place centuries ago? It’s such a landmark scene I think for a period drama.

Pearl Mackie: Yeah, totally, I mean, it’s amazing. And I think actually it’s one of the moments when Honour looks at Sophia less like a younger sister and more like she’s grown up. That whole kind of reclaiming of herself and understanding that she doesn’t need to try and be anything else for anyone else, is something that Honour really recognizes. And I think as a maid as well, having potentially been in situations before she was with Sophia, who knows, that she did have to bite her tongue and isn’t allowed to be herself completely.

She really, really connects with that moment and I think she feels overwhelmingly proud of her for doing that. Because in a way, it’s not something that Honour can do. She’s not at any liberty to do that—to say to her, you should take this off, because that would end with her termination. And, you know, she would have no money and it’s her livelihood and she probably knows better than that, to be honest. I think she’s so unbelievably proud of her when she does that. And I think she knows that there’s going to be hell to pay, but she’s like, yes, girl, yes, come on, I’m here for you. And I’m really happy that you’ve done that and you’ve found some strength in yourself to do that.

Jace Lacob: Tom is thrown out of Paradise Hall. Sophia hatches a plot to escape her marriage to the odious Blifil, and Honour initially against the idea until Sophia says that they’ll head to London. How does Honour balance wanting to go, but simultaneously feeling like Sophia shouldn’t run away? But that it’s like she wants to get back to the city, but she knows that maybe this isn’t the best thing. How does she balance all of those conflicting motivations?

Pearl Mackie: I think for her, it is a difficult one because she is like, well, this is going to be dangerous. And I think Sophia has a very glorified idea of what’s going to happen when she finds Tom. I don’t think she’s really thought through all of the realities of life.

And so I think for her, she’s definitely like, I don’t think this is the best idea. But, I think with the London thing, she is like, I do want to go back to London. But also, if that’s what we’re aiming for, then I kind of know it. I think she does feel there’s a safety in going to London because it’s somewhere that she’s familiar with. And maybe somewhere if push comes to shove that she might have a friend that might be able to help them out.

But also I think Sophia’s pretty determined to go anyway. I definitely think she’s made of strong stuff, Sophia, but like I say, she doesn’t know very much about the world. So, I think she’s like, well, you are definitely going to go, so I’m going to have to come with you.

Jace Lacob: I mean, she goes so far at one point to say to Sophia,

 

CLIP

Honour: It’s ruddy obvious what happened. He boasted about you. In a pub.  

Sophia: I’m sure he didn’t mean to.

Honour: He scarpered without paying.

Sophia: He has no money.

Honour: You’re throwing yourself away on a quarrelsome bastard who’d take advantage of a hole in a carpet.

Sophia: Well you don’t know him as I do! 

 

Jace Lacob: How can Honour get away with being quite this outspoken with Sophia? And is this really what she thinks of Tom or is she being perhaps a tad over dramatic here?

Pearl Mackie: I think she is being a little bit melodramatic. But also I think she’s kind of reaching the end of her tether here. You know, they’ve been through a fair amount already and they’re not even really that near London and she’s just like, I mean, come on now.

And also she’s cold and she’s hungry. And I mean, from personal knowledge of walking around in my costume shoes just one day when we were walking around in the mud, her feet are probably really wet. Those dresses, they gather the mud and they gather the water and they become heavier and heavier and colder and colder.

So I think that she’s just like, I just want to get somewhere warm and I think we should just go home because you are just being a bit stupid now.

 

MIDROLL

 

Jace Lacob: We talked about the fact that Honour is Sophia’s lady’s maid, but she also appears to spend a lot of her downtime as she wishes. She goes to the Black Swan, she visits Tom behind Sophia’s back. She’s a servant but I’m curious, what level of agency do you think Honour has? How much does she influence Sophia, or is she just sort of along for the ride or is she driving the carriage a lot of this time?

Pearl Mackie: Well, that’s interesting. Whilst Honour is very opinionated and very much says what she thinks particularly to Sophia, and she has a lot of strong feelings about Tom and about them not going on the journey, I do think if she was kind of driving the carriage as you so lovely put it, I don’t think they would’ve gone anywhere.

At the end of the day, she is a maid and she does need her money. If she’s cast out without anything then, there’s not really many other options for a young working class woman in those times. There wasn’t really much else you could do. I’m sure word would spread quite quickly if you’d been let go from a house of high standing. So I think essentially that is her first port of call, though that’s not really a very exciting answer.

Jace Lacob: But I mean, we know she is the only ladies maid who can style Sophia’s hair, for example. She’s skilled at what she does, and it is this small detail that to me, adds authenticity to both Sophia’s and Honour’s lived-in reality. And it is a skill that she would’ve brought to the dressing table, as it were, for lack of a better term. Did you see those details as offering truth to what would’ve been a very period specific experience for a wealthy woman of color?

Pearl Mackie: Oh yeah, definitely. I think ask any Black or mixed race woman and they would’ve had experiences of…doing your hair can be quite an arduous thing. And it’s also something that you learn when you are young, but it takes a while to be able to manage it as it grows. And it’s not always easy. It can be really difficult. And I think the reality of that, and of that dynamic being the key, yeah, I have a lot of respect for that level of realism. I think that is definitely true.

But then also, I guess that does mean that essentially whilst that skill is invaluable to Sophia, it’s not potentially that valuable to that many other people, you know? I mean, obviously in our world, as I say, Honour and Sophia are the only two women of color that we see. But, maybe the reality was that there were many more, but I do wonder how many more there would be in higher stations and how many more would require a maid. So, those skills might be sort of redundant for her if anything were to happen.

Jace Lacob: That’s what I was going to say. She has this skill, but it does put her in this tenuous position where if she were to lose this by being too outspoken, by going against Lady Bellaston, as you say, she really doesn’t have a lot of options. She has to walk this very fine line of being true to Sophia and maybe pushing her lady to maybe do what’s right, but also worrying about her own self and what this means should things go sideways for the both of them.

Pearl Mackie: Yes, exactly. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there. I think she does have to exercise a level of caution, but also I do think that she has a real moral conscience. And she loves Sophia. She really cares about her. She wants her to do what’s right, but she also wants her to know about everything that’s going on because it’s that protection thing. She just doesn’t want her to be led up the garden path or to think that…I think she just really feels for her. So a lot of that kind of love and care drives her as well to do some things that maybe she wouldn’t necessarily have done for anyone else.

Jace Lacob: We come now to my favorite scene in the entire run. In episode three, Honour goes to see Tom Jones to tell him the truth about her mucky ladyship, Lady Bellaston while Lady Bellaston hides behind the screen in the room. It’s again, this delicious scene that sort of tows the line with French farce. How much fun was this sequence to shoot?

Pearl Mackie: Oh my God, this was so much fun. I mean, Hannah Waddingham is just hilarious anyway, and so wonderful and warm. And Solly is brilliant. We had such a lovely time working together. But actually we didn’t have that many scenes together really. So we just had such a brilliant time kind of working all of this out, and we were like, how is it going to be funniest? How do we play this? What about the positioning and all of that?  And all the while actually being in a very, very, very tiny, tiny, very hot room with all of the lights upstairs in a kind of dilapidated old house in Belfast.

It was just, it was so funny. And Hannah’s face I think when the curtains pulled back, I just, that was my worst nearly corpsing moment, it was just too funny.

Jace Lacob: There is one episode left of Tom Jones. What can you tease lies ahead for these star-crossed lovers and their friends and family?

Pearl Mackie: Oh my goodness. Gosh, I always get so nervous about teases. I don’t want to ruin anything. Well, what is there to say? Well, I mean as, as with any kind of brilliant story, there’s got to be a bit of a showdown. And I think everything’s got to come out. And hopefully, our two lovers end up together, but who knows? Do we even want them to at this point? Maybe we do, I don’t know. It’s all to play for really, and there’s a wonderful payoff. And I just really hope everyone enjoys it.

Jace Lacob: And what about for Honour? Might there be a happily ever after ending of sorts for our favorite lady’s maid as well?

Pearl Mackie: I mean, I think she deserves it. So, you know, fingers crossed it plays out for her. I think there could be something nice in the future for her. I think she’s paid her dues. So, fingers-crossed something nice comes her way.

Jace Lacob: There’s been a lot of debate lately about gatekeeping in period dramas and sci-fi dramas. You starred as doctor’s companion Bill Potts on Doctor Who, what do you think of the notion of gatekeeping, about whose stories get to be told by whom and who gets to watch them or call themselves fans?

Pearl Mackie: I think that’s a really interesting notion, isn’t it? Because to a certain extent we can’t really argue that the representation behind the camera and the people who get to tell the stories are not predominantly people of color.

Looking at my experiences in the TV industry, I would say that it has changed a lot. Even since I got Dr. Who it’s changed a lot, I think. And I do think there is a real way to go. I don’t think behind the scenes, things are as diverse as they should be. I don’t think in front of the camera things are as diverse as they should be, but that we are definitely progressing much faster in. And I think I can completely empathize with that.

It’s difficult, isn’t it? Because we want the stories to be told, but we want them to be told accurately and honestly, and from the perspective of people like us. So I can completely understand where people are coming from. But then the difficulty is that if that representation isn’t there right now, does that mean we put a hold on those stories until the representation is there? I don’t know. It’s a difficult question.

I think for me, I would obviously rather that we, when we’re telling stories about Black people, when we’re telling stories about people of color, diverse individuals and diverse nations, that we definitely have some consultation from members of that community. I think that that’s probably a good place to start in terms of script supervisors, script consultants, that kind of thing. And also, you know, within production teams and within the whole sort of cast and crew.

I do think there’s, there’s, there’s mileage for people not just hiring the people that they hire all the time, because there are Black writers out there. There are Black writers who are wanting to write sci-fi. There’s so many writers and there’s so many storytellers out there that I think, I think the gatekeepers as it were, could definitely do better looking around for people to tell those stories because they do exist.

I think yeah, we can definitely do better, but I think it is an interesting debate, isn’t it?

Jace Lacob: You’re an actor, a singer, producer, you’re a true sort of multihyphenate. Was there a formative experience that made you want to be a professional actor?

Pearl Mackie: I kind of always wanted to be an actor, sort of for as long as I can remember really. I used to watch a lot of old 1940s films with my mom when she was doing my hair on a Sunday night. We watched Meet Me in St. Louis a lot, and that was one of my favorite films. And Judy Garland singing “The Trolley Song”, I remember being quite overwhelmed with how she was telling this story, but she sort of steps out of the first person narrative to tell her story to the audience and to her audience on this trolley, but she’s also living it at the same time. And you kind of were going with her.

And I was just quite bowled over by that. And I just remember, I felt so emotional for her. And then, you know, when he gets on, you’re so like, oh my God, this is crazy, but you really want it to go well. And she’s just taking you on such a journey that I was like, I mean, if I can make people feel like a fraction of that, then that is what I would like to do.

Jace Lacob: You were cast as the first openly gay companion, Bill Potts, opposite Peter Capaldi’s 12th doctor. To me, Bill sort of represented the most down to earth regular companion on Doctor Who in a very long time. She’s a working class girl who also happens to be Black and queer. Was it significant to you that that didn’t feel groundbreaking, but that her identity was just sort of presented matter-of-factly?

Pearl Mackie: Totally. Yeah, that was one of the things that drew me to the script. When I first read the script, I remember being like, I feel like I know her. And I feel like the way that she is told and the way that the character has been created is so realistic. And, you know, I really wouldn’t have felt comfortable with her grappling with her sexuality or having to come out to the doctor at a certain point. Obviously that’s part of everyone’s journey, has been part of mine, it’s something that is very important, but I don’t think that representation would have been useful in this show. And I think I really loved that Bill was just like, I am who I am. I am, I’m gay, I’m Black, but I am me and I really love that.

Jace Lacob: Honour is extremely outspoken, rather humorously so. Bill asked questions that no one else would. Is there a part of you that admires that frankness of these two?

Pearl Mackie: Yeah, I think there’s a part of me in that frankness as well, to be honest. I think I’ve probably got a little bit better at tempering that, but I think it’s definitely something I respect in people as well.

Just being like, why not? Let’s just see what happens. Let’s just ask the question that no one would. I think often if you do, in some situations, as long as it’s not rude or offensive or makes anyone uncomfortable, I think sometimes that’s the way you can connect with people the most, you know?

If you’re sitting next to someone at a dinner that you don’t really know and all you talk about is the weather and how lovely the food is, then…I do think there is something about being honest and asking questions that dig deeper, that create a human connection, I think that’s kind of what we’re all looking for really, isn’t it?

Jace Lacob: So we’re going to ask a very honest question now, and I want a very honest answer.

Pearl Mackie: Okay. Go for it.

Jace Lacob: True or false, Waterloo Bridge is your favorite London Bridge?

Pearl Mackie: True. Yes it is. Yes. I love Waterloo Bridge. It has the best views on both sides in my humble opinion. Westminster Bridge is too near the Houses of Parliament because all you can see is the Houses of Parliament. And then on the other side, everything else is sort of too far away.

But Waterloo Bridge, you can look over and you can see all of the Houses of Parliament. You can see it sort of sparkling. You can see Big Ben, you can see the river, you can see going down towards Battersea. And then on the other side you can see Waterloo Bridge, you’re crossing over to the national which is obviously amazing. And then you’ve got St. Paul’s and stuff further down and yeah, it’s my favorite. It’s the best one.

Jace Lacob: Give me Hammersmith, when it’s open, when it’s finally open again, or Millennium Bridge. Those are my bridges.

Pearl Mackie: Oh yeah. Millennium Bridge is good. Hammersmith is just way too far west though, mate. You’re missing all the East stuff.

Jace Lacob: I know, I know, I know. I mean, at this point in your career, you’ve seemingly done everything, period, drama, sci-fi, thrillers, crime, drama, comedy, stage screen, television, movies, all of it. Are you just constantly in pursuit of new challenges? Is that what motivates you as an actor?

Pearl Mackie: Oh yeah, totally. Totally. I’m like that as a person. I love to be challenged. One of the great joys of being an actor is that you get to explore different people and different people’s ways of life and all of these different professions that you never actually, you know, you don’t actually have to train to be a police officer, but you can learn lots about it and kind of explore what that’s like for three months.

I don’t think I’d ever sort of like to just do one genre forevermore or, I don’t know. I think there’s interest in long running shows. I think because you have character arcs and there’s different kinds of situations coming in that can sort of be a challenge kind of in its own way. But yeah, I mean, I like to mix it up. I think there’s still a couple of genres that I haven’t done yet. So, we’ll see what happens next.

Jace Lacob: We’ll see what happens next. Pearl Mackie, thank you so very much.

Pearl Mackie: Thank you, Jace. It was absolutely lovely talking to you.

 

Next time, Tom Jones’ world gets increasingly complicated as our lovelorn hero continues to wrestle with right and wrong. 

CLIP

Tom: I can’t do this. It’s not true, it’s wrong. It’s ugly. 

Nightingale: Finish the job.

 

Come back to hear from Tom Jones himself as Solly McLeod joins us next week, Sunday May 21st, to tie up the story of Tom Jones’ misadventures.