Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

For a show called Miss Scarlet and The Duke, it was long past time we spoke to the titular Duke.

CLIP

Duke This is not a good time.

Eliza Inspector Wellington, we have each been sent an explosive device. Or rather it would be explosive if it was rigged to go off, which thankfully it wasn’t…

Duke Come with me, now.

Jace William Wellington is suave, charming, and, with the possible exception of Miss Eliza Scarlet, one of the finest young detectives Victorian London has to offer.

CLIP

Eliza What do you want, William?

Duke I’ve been sent home, told to take a leave of absence. That idiot Hudson believes that because I was the target of a bomb threat I may pose a danger to others at Scotland Yard. I mean, the man is a fool.

Jace So what puzzle can Wellington not solve? Why, his own romantic inclinations, of course.

CLIP

Eliza: Can I really choose any ring dearest?  Any one at all?

Duke: Any one at all.

Eliza: I hardly know where to begin, I feel like a child in a sweet shop!

Shop Owner: May I ask how long have you been engaged?

Duke: Erm…

Eliza: Four days, three hours and nine minutes!

Jace Stuart Martin has played everything from Lorenzo de Medici to William “The Duke” Wellington, and he joins the podcast to unpack a busy season of Miss Scarlet and The Duke, and look ahead to the upcoming fourth season of the series as well.

 And this week, we are joined by Miss Scarlet and The Duke star, Stuart Martin. Welcome.

Stuart Martin Hello. Thank you very much for having me.

Jace You are in the thick of filming series four of Miss Scarlet and the Duke and have now played the Duke for more than three series. Has your appreciation of William Wellington changed during that time?

Stuart Yeah, it’s definitely I always had a massive appreciation for him, for the character, for the writing, for this show. And I, you know, I always that’s what really jumped off the page for me is the script and, and the way it is written and the characters. But I, I think you know with, with the sort of following seasons luckily as each season has gone on, I feel like I’ve really got to challenge myself and sort of challenge myself and sort of challenge Duke, William and how he is in certain situations, we sort of got to flesh that out much more. Snd that that’s an amazing thing when you come back to each season to be able to come in and go, ‘I’m so excited to be back because I get to challenge myself, and I want to show this this season or I want to push this further this season.’ And you get to do that with William. And so that’s a real gift, you know?

Jace You mentioned the scripts. I’m curious. What was it about Rachael New’s scripts that attracted you to the role initially when you signed on? What did jump off the page, as you say, at you?

Stuart Well, you know, you read a lot of scripts and I mean, just by the by the end of the first page, I mean, it was literally halfway down that first page, I just remember going, ‘Wow.’ It was the sort of…well it was that and those cuts, as you as you sort of came out, the fromt of it, the you know, that very first episode with Scarlet and the sort of one-liners of how you finish a scene, it was just so cool, you know, this real cool edge to it. And that sort of was throughout. It always finished the scene with this great sort of fun and almost like sparring to or always had an outline and I loved that about it. And I think that makes it really different and that’s just continued all the way through. So that was the first page for me, so I was desperate. I read it and I was obviously desperate to do it.

Jace I mean, there is, I love period dramas, but there is a sort of energy and vitality to Miss Scarlet and the Duke that does make it different to other period dramas. And you yourself aren’t a stranger to period dramas, though. I have to say that seeing you in a bespoke suit is very different to your costume in, say, Jamestown. Why do you think you keep getting cast in period dramas, were you perhaps born in the wrong era?

Stuart I think it’s because I can grow a beard and sometimes grow my hair long. I remember for years when sort of I first came out of drama school, I had a short back and sides haircut. And it was like I was always playing soldiers and coppers and modern coppers in the nineties and the noughties. I was going, ‘Why am I always playing soldiers?’ ‘Because you’ve got a short back and sides.’ And then, the minute I grew my hair a bit longer, it was like, ‘You can’t play coppers anymore unless they’re Victorian, unless they’re period cops. But I think it’s a really lovely thing to be able to, it just adds a whole other excitement to it for me to, to go to a different world, you now, to jump back in time. And I really love that. I love the history of I loved learning about what’s come before and around the time and where they were at socially and politically. That is like, I love the deep dive into that, to sort of explain why your character is totally are and how they react. I really like that, that sort of history lesson I get to do.

Jace And what research did you do then when you were preparing for this? Were there were there specific texts that you turned to in order to ground the character in what you’re talking about in those sort of political or social or cultural kind of moments of the Victorian Era?

Stuart Well don’t tell anyone, but if you’ve ever doing a Victorian show, there’s a book called How to Be a Victorian. And that is an amazing, amazing book. I can’t remember who did it, but you’re always you’re always looking for the writing around that time or, you know, books around that table. And sometimes you just get absolute gold dust with a book or a writer and you know, it gives you everything you need. And there you have this sort of Bible. And it was that book, How to Be a Victorian, which it’s been a while, it’s been a couple of years since I read the book leading up to season one. And there’s some amazing sort of things in there is amazing little bits of gold dust that show you where they were at and how people acted and how they courted and how they, every part of life is sort of in this book and done in quite a fun way versus it being this 700-page heavy thing about the politics of the time. It’s sort of absolute perfection of what you need as an actor. And I actually saw it, I saw it sitting on the desk when we were back filming, it was in hair and makeup because they have 50 books lying on the table as reference for styles and hair and makeup and costume and things. And there it was on the table and I was like, ‘Oh! My old friend.’

Jace I mean, it’s hard for me to picture Wellington without his trademark bowler hat. What is your relationship with the hat? Do you love it or loathe it?

Stuart I absolutely love it, I love the bowler hat and I remember when we first, well we came over to Ireland to film, and Leoni, the amazing costume designer for season one and Prendergast, and sort of emailed me, which is very, you know, you send over your measurements because they want to get a head start on that, especially with something like Duke’s suit, you know, they’re very they’re all tailormade and they’re all beautifully made for us. So I sent off my measurements and I remember, it was me at home with my son, who probably would have been, god, he probably would have been three at a time. And I didn’t have anyone to hold the measuring tape for certain tricky measurements. So, you know, across the back. So you need an extra finger. So I got Joshie to, my three year old, to hold on my head. An I sort of put up the measuring tape and I was like, ‘Okay, wherever that measurement was at, you know, whatever inches,’ send that off. And then when we go over for the prep, the hat, tried the suit on, it was beautiful, couple of adjustments and Leoni said, ‘Here is the bowler hat. This has been specifically bought from this beautiful hat store in Saville Row, it’s an incredibly expensive beautiful piece that has been made specifically for your head,’ and I tried it on and it was tiny. It was too small a, and we were starting to shoot in about five days. And I said, ‘Oh, God, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I shouldn’t,’ and she said, ‘Oh, it’s fine. It’s fine. How did you get the measurement wrong?’ and I said, ‘Well, my son helped me.’ And she said, ‘What age is he?’ ‘Three.’ So they had to get another one couriered over, and it was there for the first day of filming.

Jace Oh, amazing.

Stuart So that was the start of my relationship with my bowler, with Duke’s bowler, and I really love it.

Jace Unlike the historical Duke, your Wellington like you, Stuart, in real life, is Scottish. How does his nationality define him in the south of England, in London in particular? Does it mark him instantly as an outsider?

Stuart Well, that is a great question. Originally there was sort of no chat of him being Scottish. He was a detective at Scotland Yard, and the more we sort of, I was working on it, me and Rach were chatting and he just felt it was he just felt Scottish and he, he just felt to me like he was Scottish and Rach agreed. So that was kind of where = that started. And it’s then, you know, this whole backstory came into of his growing up in Glasgow and you know, that whole back story. But it does, it makes him he is an outsider as so many of the characters in Scarlet are. And he has his own struggles, although he is a man, at that time, so his struggles aren’t as difficult as some, obviously. But yeah, it’s nice that they are all outsiders and they all have something to struggle against his, you know, not just being Scottish but his class, you know, and his class doesn’t allow him to rise through the ranks as he would like. So everyone’s against these walls that they can’t quite get through. And I think that keeps the drama there and it keeps the fun there. You know, I think there’s so many great…you want to see them struggle.

Jace To me, the scenes where where the Duke and Eliza verbally spar are my favorites in Miss Scarlet and the Duke and you and Kate both deliver your remarks with such intense biting scorn in a beautiful way.

CLIP

Eliza Not much to show for a life of crime is it?

Duke: Crime doesn’t pay, Eliza.  Actually that’s not true, there are many criminals who make more than I do.

Eliza: Well, you’ll have to save up if you’re going to buy me that ring.

Duke: No doubt. I’m sure you have expensive tastes.

Eliza Actually I don’t. I didn’t like any of those rings, I’d prefer a simple small stone. As long as it’s in a gift box with a bow, I’d be happy. That was always – my favourite part of Christmas, the unwrapping rather than the present itself.

Duke: I’ll keep that in mind.

Eliza Now Arabella on the other hand, well that’s a different story. Goodness only knows how much you’d have to spend if you were to buy her a ring. If you get the chance of a promotion I really would take it.

Jace How much fun are those very dialogue-heavy scenes to play?

Stuart They’re great. They are, I remember, you know, from season one that just feeling like you would you would do a line run and, you know, which comes sort of before a rehearsal. You run the lines and then you start rehearsing normally on it and then you might do it a few times and, and then you start shooting and but on this, on Scarlet, it always was the case that you would do the line run and you were sort of already there were, there was like by the end of that line run, it was like, ‘Okay, it’s there, everything’s in place.’ You know, it was so, so easy to flow into it, it felt very natural. And, you know, it’s amazing, our working relationship is really fun. You know, we it just feels very easy and very natural. And that. Yeah, I love that. That sort of that bantering, and that like, you know, sword fighting and fencing sparring thing and especially when they’re enjoying it. That’s what I really love. You know they aren’t always, he can sometimes be on the back foot or she can be on the back foot but when one of them is really enjoying it I think that’s, or both are really enjoying it, which they do, and that’s so much fun to play. It is so much fun to watch.

Jace You play one of the titular leads in a detective series where your character, a police detective, rarely gets to solve the case. Do you ever wish that Wellington would beat Eliza to get the collar in the end?

Stuart I feel like what you’re not seeing is William solving a lot of crimes. Yeah, it’s just that where the camera’s pointing, it tends to be Eliza that gets those cases. No, we joke about it, but no, I love it. I think it makes total sense. He, you know, you’re going, ‘What’s he up against? What is his struggle?’ Very early I would sort of ask myself, ‘What’s he struggling with, what’s, why is he so kind of overworked?’ And you go, ‘Well, actually, he’s across so many cases, yu know?’ He has multiple, numerous cases landing on his desk. And, you know, because you go, ‘Why does he get it wrong? Why did he arrest that person? Why did he overlook this,’ and, you know, it just makes total sense to me that he’s completely overworked and the whole department is overworked. They’re expanding. They’ve got less good staff and less good coppers coming through. So, you know, I don’t feel like he’s kind of being thrown under the bus. I feel like that’s just the way it was. He’s a good copper. He’s not a bad copper, you know, He’s a really, really good detective, but, you know, the allowance of time and and what he has his resources means that he can’t get it right all the time.

Jace I mean I like to look at it that he has a 100% solve rate on cases that don’t involve Eliza Scarlet.

Stuart Yeah exactly That’s what it is. Yeah.

Jace As you say, the camera’s just pointing at him for these episodes.

Stuart Yeah. And we just see him not getting the collars there.

Jace Before this next question, a brief word from our sponsors…

Series three introduced a new obstacle in William and Eliza getting together romantically in the form of Arabella, a character who is herself a professional woman like Eliza. What does Arabella offer the Duke that Eliza doesn’t or can’t?

Stuart Herself. In a way, she’s there, really. She’s available, emotionally available. And that’s kind of, he wants that from Eliza, I think it’s safe to say, or certainly in my eyes and, you know, we see that in season three that he, he wants Eliza. You know, he wants to be around her and be with her. And it just never quite materializes. And Arabella fills that gap. She steps into that place, really. She is there for him and checks a lot of the boxes. She’s also an incredibly strong, independent woman. She’s not you know, she’s not unlike Eliza and I think Duke’s, well Duke is attracted to that, to strong women, to strength and to their individual strength.

Jace The Duke confronts Eliza in episode five, saying that he feels like she’s avoiding him, particularly after he’s been away. She finally volunteers why she’s acting so prickly and she knows about his relationship with Arabella.

CLIP

Duke Eliza I erm… I want to clear the air about Arabella.

Eliza Your private life is your own, William.

Duke I know you two haven’t always seen eye to eye. But er…but I don’t want my friendship with Arabella to cause problems between us.

Eliza Nor do I. I will endeavor to make an effort with her. I feel sure we will become firm friends.

Duke You’re a terrible, terrible liar, but I appreciate the effort.

Jace Given that that history between the two of them, why doesn’t the Duke tell Eliza himself? Is it a case of it being better to ask forgiveness rather than permission?

Stuart I love that phrase. I absolutely love that phrase. I remember the sort of playing of it, and again, I just there was there was a lot of different ways that you could play it. And I feel like it’s probably quite, quite a man thing, but he, it’s probably just going, ‘It’s all fine. It’s all fine. I’m just I’m not really going to think about it, it’s all good.’ So I’m not saying that he’s not unaware of it, but it’s only when it’s brought up that he goes, ‘Yeah, actually you’re right. I should have said something, but I, I in some way I wasn’t trying to pull the wool over your eyes. But yes, you’re right. I should have sort of confronted it. I should have had that difficult conversation,’ which is always a difficult conversation to have. You sort of, you know, we know now, in the modern world, you go, okay, should I mention, I like, you know, whatever it might be to do with to do with work or whatever, or to a friend, you know, you go, this is the right thing to do, I should say this, I should let them know. And then you go, Yeah, they probably don’t care. Or, you know, you sort of make excuses. And I feel like he hasn’t not thought about it. He’ll have sort of gone, ‘What am I gonna say?’ like, you know, ‘For all I know, she’s not interested in me, so why should I sort of go, Oh, by the way.’ So, yeah, I think I, I still believe that he, you know, there was nothing malicious in that. It was it’s just an awkward conversation. And what’s amazing actually about that conversation is as we see and we get this amazing thing really kind of I love those moments when they really open up to each other and they’re really honest with each other to get to see that in them is amazing. And you get to sort of see one in two and you get to see a couple of times in three and we get to see that real honesty again in season four. And that is a really lovely thing to see, you know, they don’t bat it off. They don’t try and spar or joke the way out of it. I really love that moment when they just both stop and they’re very honest andt they’re very human with each other.

Jace And it is a very I love this scene because it is incredibly sad on both sides. We get the sense here that things could shift in their dynamic because of this moment and how they play it. And each one is so sort of tentative about what they’re asking and what they are asking for. It’s a beautiful moment between them.

Stuart It is. And it’s that thing I remember going back to How To Be a Victorian. But there was so much about I remember reading about, you know, there were certain rules at the time and there was rules around obviously men and women and the greetings and, and, you know, touching. So the idea of breaking that space, you know, touching hands, these sorts of moments, you sort of go, they’re both rule breakers, but you also have to know the rules and when and where to break them. And I think it’s great, that sort of reserved quality they have. It’s not quite reserved, but you have to remember that they are, you know, a Victorian unmarried couple. They’re not. You know, there’s there’s rules. So I love that, being able to be withheld and then the moments when they sort of forget the rules, they’re rulebreakers. We want to see rule breakers. So those moments are very exciting and they’re sort of, they should be held back. You know, we see one in season one at the funeral where you where you go, ‘Well, he wouldn’t touch her cheek at her father’s funeral.’ But then you go, ‘Well, this is a place where I want to break that rule. And I want to sort of slightly to be a rule breaker in that moment.’ And because it’s so few times that you get to see that, I think it can be a little bit, it reads a lot more.

Jace There’s an ease to the Duke’s domestic scenes with Arabella as he drinks whiskey with her at the end of the day and talks endlessly about how infuriating Eliza is. Does he not see that even sat here with this other woman, Eliza is still the star around which William orbits?

Stuart Yeah, I, I like to think, you know, I really one of the things coming into season three, or certainly with that relationship was I wanted it to be really easy and to see that in some ways Duke is an accomplished, I don’t want to say an accomplished lover, sorry, but he’s been here before is not because we see him we can we see him being uncomfortable/ or that’s not the right word, but we see him being more withheld with Eliza. And I wanted to see him being like, ‘Oh, that is just with Eliza, because he’s been so respectful to that, to her space and to her headspace and to her wants.’ But I wanted to see with Arabella just this ease. You just go, ‘Oh, he’s comfortable in that space.’ And I think, yeah, with the one where he’s going on about, she is just in his head. Eliza is just in his head because, you know, we as, Arabella, calls him out on it at the end of season three, which is one of the best scenes I have read, she calls and on it but to through yeah he’s sort of I don’t think he’s maliciously playing a game in his head he’s not thinking about it too much, but Eliza is just in his head so he doesn’t think anything wrong of it. He’s not thinking, ‘I’m going to not speak about her or I am going to speak about her,’ they just spend a lot of time together. And he hasn’t thought anything of sort of saying it.

Jace I mean, in some ways, William and Arabella are suited for each other. They both have careers in different industries. They get along. They don’t have the friction of Eliza and William. I mean, if Eliza weren’t in the picture, could you envision a future where William and Arabella could be quite happy together?

Stuart Yeah, I think I think completely, yeah. That if Eliza wasn’t in the picture, you wouldn’t even think about it. He’s really fond of Arabella. He really likes her. And he tries to not be swayed by Eliza. And I think in some ways he is. But it just, with Eliza in the picture or Eliza is, you know, the fact that she’s even in his head and in his world, it would be dishonest of him really, to go any further. And I think you know, had Arabella have not called it, I wonder how far they would have got really. And I think it’s such a lovely thing because it just says, I love love. And I, I think it’s such a great thing to go, ‘Yeah. This is he’s just he’s just in love with her, and she calls it, Arabella calls it, and it’s such a great thing that he just doesn’t say anything back. You know, I think it’s just so. I remember reading it, and it’s just perfect writing to, you know, to not have Duke have to say it. But what I wanted as a as an actor and almost as an audience member is I just I want him to say it, like, I want that to be out there in the world. And Rachael writes in such a brilliant way to go out without him saying it. You know, and I think that’s genius. Somebody else says it. Everyone else says it. And you don’t see him disagreeing with it or arguing with that. I think it’s genius.

CLIP

Duke My relationship with Eliza is purely one of friendship. 

Arabella You are in love with her. Unless you can convince me otherwise? Well, I wish you luck. You will need it.

Duke Arabella…

Arabella And I say this out of friendship, not malice. Eliza’s ambition will outweigh everything. even her feelings for you. Nothing will ever be enough for her. Certainly not the future you envisage. You can see yourself out.

Jace He doesn’t deny it. He doesn’t say anything. I mean, is this ultimately the moment where it truly clicks for him, where he has to admit not just to himself, but to admit silently to someone else, that he does love her?

Stuart Well, that’s the interesting thing, isn’t it, that again, there was so many different ways you could play that, that it could be played out. And I think for me, it’s just something that he hasn’t even admitted to himself in a way. You know, he just almost can’t allow himself to go there mentally because I think they’ve been there before, you know. And another one of my favorite scenes at the start of season two, where they’re just like he knows that she can’t it’s just not going to work in this current environment, in the current place that they are professionally, career wise, drive wise. And so he’s sort of kind of admitted to himself, and that’s the first time someone says it to him. And I think he just a really penny drops there. And moving forward in season four, you have to ask yourself, ‘Well how is that going to play out?’ He’s the bull in a china shop. He strolls into a room. So we want to see him in that place. That if he’s admitted it to himself, then he should follow that. And so I think it’ll be interesting to see whether he does, how that plays out or whether he pulls back on that and bides his time, or whether he’s just a loss with an has to find something else that fills that space or that place.

Jace There is still a lot about Wellington’s past we don’t know about, and his early years with Eliza in particular. Is there any chance that series four might answer some of the questions viewers have about those early days together?

Stuart I think the viewers are going to be very excited about a lot of things in season four, but there are some really, really lovely, lovely episodes that hopefully answer a lot of those questions. You know, when I read them I was like, ‘Oh!’ They’re really, really lovely. And it’s kind of, we’ve sort of been drip-feed, which I love about Rachael’s writing the way that it’s just sort of drip-fed through and, you know, right up to season four, bits about the past is not is not sort of in there a big monologue or anything. It’s just drip-fed and we start to get this this sort of idea of where they’re from. And we get to see a lot of that in season four. And they’re really, really lovely moments.

Jace Has playing Wellington taught you anything about yourself? Do you aspire to have, say, his confidence or swagger?

Stuart Oh, good question. I mean, the fact that he and that he does just go in and speak his mind. I ike that about him. He has a real, he’s very sure of his position and he’s sure of his place in the world. And I like that. And I like the fact that he challenges authority. I think that those are really great attributes to how to challenge authority when it’s wrong and to speak up and to also speak up for others. You know, he will give credit where credit is due and he will pass over that sort of, you know, victory to others happily and even when it goes against them. So you have got to have a lot of respect for that.

Jace Looking back, was there one specific moment in your life that was where your desire to act crystallized?

Stuart Oh…I’ve got real memories of being in a little cinema, the Odeon, in my hometown and you know, going down the little dark corridor into screen, to see something and that sort of magical experience for me you know, going to see Jurassic Park and going to see amazing films in these little dark rooms. I loved that. And that’s kind of where I was like, ‘That’d be a cool job, wouldn’t it? That’d be a cool thing to do.’ So I feel very lucky that I do get to do that in some way because it never is, never. It’s never boring, you know? It’s always incredibly and thrilling and creatively too, to sort of go into these characters and to have choices in how they might play and how they might play out. And that for me is really exciting.

Jace So not, say, wanting to be Sean Connery in James Bond?

Stuart Oh my God. Do you know, I was actually I was the proper Bond geek proper Bond geek. and actually I phoned all my all my little toys when I was in Scotland recently with my son and he took all my like 20- year old Bond cars and Bond figures and he broke them all.

Jace Oh, of course.

Stuart I was like, ‘Oh my goodness. You know. like I cherished them. I looked after them and he broke them all.’ But no, he’s actually even though he’s only six, I’ve showed him little bits like we’ve been to the Bond and Bond in motion and all that, and he absolutely loves it. But I think, yeah, that probably was one of my yeah, the Bonds. I was like, Tomorrow Never Dies and all those Bonds, the Pierce Brosnan Bonds were my sort of gateway in, and that seemed like my gateway into film, yeah.

Jace You’re married to fellow actor Lisa McGrillis, who I love as Kelly in Mum. I was just talking to Lesley Manville about her in the show recently…

Stuart Oh, yeah,

Jace …a few weeks ago. You and Lisa have got two kids. What would you say if one or both wanted to follow in Mum and Dad’s footsteps? Is that something that you would want, or that you would discourage?

Stuart No, I would. I would be, I just want them to be happy. And I think, you know, that’s kind of what everyone, every parent wants. And I think there’s a, I’m in quite a good place of being aware that I didn’t know quite what my other options were. I didn’t really have any at school. And, you know, I saw a lot of friends going to university or people I was at school with going to university because they were kind of told to go to university and study something there. And then after a couple of years, they left and they did something else. And I think that, I just feel like you’re so young, even at 20 or 25 or 30 or  45. You know, if you start doing something, they’ll put pressure on yourself to go, ‘Well, I’ve decided I’m going to be an actor,’ it. I’m going to be I want to be, you know, do this or a plumber or whatever it is. There’s so much movement now, I think, because so many jobs. There isn’t jobs for life really anymore. So you might as well do something you’d love or you’d enjoy or you think that you could see yourself to. And if that doesn’t work or you don’t enjoy it as much as you thought you would then, or the lifestyle of it. And you can always kind of shift to something else. That may sound naive, but I just I think it was different, you know? But then when you had this job for life and it’s not it doesn’t feel as as restrictive as that now. So yeah.

Jace Stuart Martin, thank you so very much.

Stuart Thank you so much. Jace It was really lovely.

Jace It’s Christmas in February again — and Father Christmas returns to the Dales.

CLIP

Tristan You ready to meet Father Christmas, Eva?

Eva He looks funny.

Richard  Right, you coming in or not?

Helen Dad…be nice!

James You think she’ll be alright?

Helen It might put her off Christmas for good.

Jace Rachel Shenton and Nicholas Ralph return to the podcast, February 19.

MASTERPIECE Studio is hosted by me, Jace Lacob, produced by Nick Andersen and edited by Robyn Bissette. Elisheba Ittoop is our sound designer. The executive producer of MASTERPIECE is Susanne Simpson.